Separating Tread On All 4 Tires - How?

[Lethal1ty17]

I have a 2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe with a little over 205,xxx miles at the moment and I drive a lot of highway miles. I have General GMAX AS-03 tires all around. The fronts have about 34,000 miles on them with a majority of the tread left and were installed 12 months ago The rear tires have about 40,000 miles on them with about 50% tread left and were installed 13-14 months ago. They are staggered from the factory and have never been run low on air. All of the suspension components that can wear out (shocks/struts/mounts/tie rods/etc) have been replaced within the past year and a half (50,000 ish miles) and the car has not been lowered. I have a lifetime alignment and balancing thing through Firestone and just got everything aligned and balanced at 197,xxx miles before a road trip (TX, NM, CO). Everything passed inspection then and had no issues.

I started to get some vibration in the wheel and assumed it was time for a rebalance again since low profile tires are a bit touchier when it comes to losing some of the balance over time. Go in this morning and they say they won't balance the wheels due to it being pointless and took me into the shop to show me the tires. There was cupping evident on all of them, and high spots from the belts starting to separate. On all 4 tires. How is it possible that all 4 tires suddenly have belts separating? I can see a manufacturing defect on one tire batch, but they are different sized tires thus would be a different batch. Whatever caused it happened within the past 7,000 miles (month and a half) in which I have done a road trip from TX to NM to CO and back, and just driving around on the highways in Texas. I haven't hit anything with every single tire and if it was caused by hitting something the only thing I can think of is the series of speed bumps in my apartment complex...but even still that shouldn't cause 4 tires to separate tread.

Thoughts? Input?

 

[redbone3]

Tires are at fault. A long time ago I had the same thing happen on 4 Pirelli's on my Saab Sonett.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: redbone3
Tires are at fault. A long time ago I had the same thing happen on 4 Pirelli's on my Saab Sonett.


So all 4 tires (different size and batch front to back) just magically go bad nearly simultaneously? I'm not sure I will have much luck getting even a pro-rated set considering the mileage I have on them even though there is quite a bit of tread left.

 

[MParr]

You have two things working against you. First, you are using a Firestone Store for your balancing and alignment. They will try to sell you anything and everything. Second, your tire selection isn’t that great for your car. Your local Hyundai dealership will match anyone’s price on tires.

 

[Eddie]

My experience suggest that the cupping is caused by bad shocks. Ed

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: MParr
You have two things working against you. First, you are using a Firestone Store for your balancing and alignment. They will try to sell you anything and everything. Second, your tire selection isn’t that great for your car. Your local Hyundai dealership will match anyone’s price on tires.


Lifetime alignment and balancing plan I purchased several years ago, get the printout sheet and everything when done. They actually do an ok job. Also, what is wrong with my choice of tires? I've had two sets of them before, along with some Continental DWS 06's and liked the Generals better. Had great ratings on Tire Rack as well. OEM tires are terrible and you spend more on tire wear than fuel costs so I am not putting those back on.

Originally Posted By: Eddie
My experience suggest that the cupping is caused by bad shocks. Ed


Were replaced with OEM parts. Keep in mind 7,000 miles ago when I got the last alignment and tire balancing there were no issues with abnormal wear or belt issues. So suddenly all of the components just wore out within a 7,000 mile stretch in the past month and a half of highway driving?

 

[MParr]

Our local Firestone Store is run by a bunch of sharlitans. You go in there and tell them what you want and here comes the computer printout and them trying to sell you a bunch of other things. I bought a set of General Altimax RT43 based on a Tire Rack recommendation and those things were junk. Your Hyundai dealer sells other tires than OE.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Our local Firestone Store is run by a bunch of sharlitans. You go in there and tell them what you want and here comes the computer printout and them trying to sell you a bunch of other things. I bought a set of General Altimax RT43 based on a Tire Rack recommendation and those things were junk. Your Hyundai dealer sells other tires than OE.


Every time I've gone to a dealer they have charged more for things than I could have independently purchased them for. I also lived close to the Tire Rack warehouse.

 

[TinyVoices]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Our local Firestone Store is run by a bunch of sharlitans. You go in there and tell them what you want and here comes the computer printout and them trying to sell you a bunch of other things. I bought a set of General Altimax RT43 based on a Tire Rack recommendation and those things were junk. Your Hyundai dealer sells other tires than OE.


Surprised to hear you think they are junk. So many people swear by them. I have a set on the matrix and they are unparalleled in comfort, road noise, and snow grip for an all season. Definitely a great tire it seems.

 

[Eric2018]

I used to work at NTW/NTB many years ago, and only encountered 1 vehicle with 4 separated tires. I don't remember all the details, but ended up replacing all 4 tires with road hazard claims.

My recommendation, use non-directional tires up front and rotate them side to side every 3k to 5k miles.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Belt separation, especially when on all four tires, is usually excessive heat related, or defective tires.

But you have put a lot of miles on these tires (you are running about 30,000+ miles per year highway) and I wonder at what speeds you travel at, since that is a lot of driving.

I see these are Z rated but speed rating is only partly correlating to heat dissipation. Certain conditions (inflation pressure, load, weight of vehicle and passengers / cargo) can increase heat and once in the tire it's very hard to get out of the tire without simply stopping and letting them cool. The other thing is it only takes one heat event to damage the tires; maybe you ran it faster than usual one time for 20 minutes or more. That could do it.

Only you know what those issues are and I don't care so no need to protest your innocence here. Those are the two possible reasons; take it from there.

 

[JLTD]

I would have a factory alignment check - Firestone is good but might not be 100% on your vehicle at that location.

Another good investment: Michelin. I've had two sets last 100k*



*One actually went more than that distance and one had 60k when trading the vehicle and 70% tread life...

 

[MParr]

What JLTD said. I would have a factory alignment check - Firestone is good but might not be 100% on your vehicle at that location.
Goodyear Eagle F1
Yokohama Advan
Nitro Proxies

 

[Cujet]

It sounds to me like lower quality tires don't hold up well for your use profile.

My Jaguar X-Type is a little hard on tires. The tires are small, the car is heavy and it's all wheel drive. I've discovered that Michelin's from Costco hold up well. Hankooks, Pirelli, General and a few others all fail early, and all the same way, by getting lumpy.

 

[billt460]

I've had the same thing happen to 2 sets of 31 X 10.5 X 15's on my truck over it's lifetime. The first time it was on a set of Remington's. The second were a set of Goodyear Wranglers. Both around the 20,000 mile mark. They were never overloaded, or run low on air. Both had several thousand miles of tread left on them, and were rotated regularly, and showed even wear.

On the Remington's a slight vibration started, then progressively got worse. Until the truck would violently shimmy at low speeds. You could see the tread distorted and separating, making a "S" pattern when you watched the tread as the truck was slowly rolled forward. I got it to Discount before they came apart. They sold me the Wranglers.

With the Wranglers I wasn't so lucky. The tread started coming off in chunks one day, while I was driving home from work on the freeway. The chunks of rubber flying off sounded like someone was pounding on the inside of the wheel wells with a rubber mallet. I got off the freeway, and managed to get the truck home using surface streets. You could see the steel belts where the tread flew off.

The next day I almost made it to Discount, until the right front let go about a block away. I put my 20 year old spare on, and limped into the parking lot.

 

[CapriRacer]

First, your car travels a LOT of miles - something on the order of 35,000 a year.

Second, the odds of all 4 tires developing a separation is extremely remote. The way this usually happens is one tire develops a separation, and gets noticed and replaced, then a second one - also replaced, followed by a much closer examination where the 3rd and 4th are found to be bulging.

Third, it is extremely rare for tires with cap plies to separate.

So I think it is unlikely the tires separated. What is more likely is that there is misalignment causing irregular wear. The shop even used the word "Cupping" - and that is not a separation,. It is irregular wear.


The alignment specs for your car call for a lot of camber - both front and rear. Note: I think anything over 1° is too much for good tire wear. In order for the camber to have a minimal affect, it has to be very close to the target. "In Spec" isn't enough.

So let's take a look at the last alignment. Did you get a print out? My experience is that the toe needs to be within 0.06°! That a 32nd of an inch - per side. Since you travel so many miles, it has to be even better than that!

If you don't have a print out, get one! I'll bet that is what is going on.

And I think the shop is aware that the tires aren't really separated. Separated tires should be removed immediately as when the belt comes off, it will do a lot of damage - and they don't want to be liable for that!

But I do agree with the shop that the tires aren't going to be any better by balancing them, because the problem is that the irregular wear is what is causing the vibration - and you can't fix that unless you shave off rubber or replace the tires.

 

[MParr]

CapriRacer is spot on. I’ll add to that, Firestone wants to sell you a set of tires. You have gotten a return on your lifetime balance and alignment from Firestone. I have never had an alignment done on my cars unless I hit something or had suspension components replaced. I don’t consider shocks or struts suspension components.

 

[Lethal1ty17]

Originally Posted By: Eric2018
I used to work at NTW/NTB many years ago, and only encountered 1 vehicle with 4 separated tires. I don't remember all the details, but ended up replacing all 4 tires with road hazard claims.

My recommendation, use non-directional tires up front and rotate them side to side every 3k to 5k miles.


The only all season non-directional tires they make I believe are the Continental DWS 06's which I've had before and didn't mind. I may have to go back to them.

Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
Belt separation, especially when on all four tires, is usually excessive heat related, or defective tires.

But you have put a lot of miles on these tires (you are running about 30,000+ miles per year highway) and I wonder at what speeds you travel at, since that is a lot of driving.

I see these are Z rated but speed rating is only partly correlating to heat dissipation. Certain conditions (inflation pressure, load, weight of vehicle and passengers / cargo) can increase heat and once in the tire it's very hard to get out of the tire without simply stopping and letting them cool. The other thing is it only takes one heat event to damage the tires; maybe you ran it faster than usual one time for 20 minutes or more. That could do it.

Only you know what those issues are and I don't care so no need to protest your innocence here. Those are the two possible reasons; take it from there.


I drive in Texas on the toll roads cruising in the 90-100mph range frequently, and it has been a warm summer here. I also took a 3,000+ mile road trip in July from TX to NM to CO and back with lots of open road cruising at around the same speed. Every once in a while on an open road I'll go a bit quicker with no one around, but I have never exceeded the speed limitation of the tires. 99% of the time it is only me in the car as well, sometimes with a bag or two if I cam travelling so I wouldn't consider it highly loaded.

Originally Posted By: JLTD
I would have a factory alignment check - Firestone is good but might not be 100% on your vehicle at that location.

Another good investment: Michelin. I've had two sets last 100k*



*One actually went more than that distance and one had 60k when trading the vehicle and 70% tread life...


Michelin has some good looking all seasons that I may end up getting.

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
First, your car travels a LOT of miles - something on the order of 35,000 a year.

Second, the odds of all 4 tires developing a separation is extremely remote. The way this usually happens is one tire develops a separation, and gets noticed and replaced, then a second one - also replaced, followed by a much closer examination where the 3rd and 4th are found to be bulging.

Third, it is extremely rare for tires with cap plies to separate.

So I think it is unlikely the tires separated. What is more likely is that there is misalignment causing irregular wear. The shop even used the word "Cupping" - and that is not a separation,. It is irregular wear.


The alignment specs for your car call for a lot of camber - both front and rear. Note: I think anything over 1° is too much for good tire wear. In order for the camber to have a minimal affect, it has to be very close to the target. "In Spec" isn't enough.

So let's take a look at the last alignment. Did you get a print out? My experience is that the toe needs to be within 0.06°! That a 32nd of an inch - per side. Since you travel so many miles, it has to be even better than that!

If you don't have a print out, get one! I'll bet that is what is going on.

And I think the shop is aware that the tires aren't really separated. Separated tires should be removed immediately as when the belt comes off, it will do a lot of damage - and they don't want to be liable for that!

But I do agree with the shop that the tires aren't going to be any better by balancing them, because the problem is that the irregular wear is what is causing the vibration - and you can't fix that unless you shave off rubber or replace the tires.






They used the word cupping to show me some of the wear on it, then addressed the bulging areas. Oddly enough the car doesn't even had adjustable camber from the factory and I had to add eccentric camber bolts to be able to adjust it - so what is considered "a lot" of camber on a vehicle where it wasn't even supposed to be adjusted? I may have to go somewhere else to get the alignment checked. Not sure why the caster is out of spec...not sure that it is even adjustable.

 

[ThumperRidgeline]

I've run Michelins for over 50 years and never had an issue..They may cost a little more up front but service and tread life are great. I tried Goodyears from Tire Rack on my WS6 but could not keep them balanced. Found out Goodyear had a recall on them and Tire Rack tried to swap for another set of Goodyears...After going up the chain and finally speaking with someone who could make a decision TR exchanged for Michelins. They are now over 6 years old and have had no issues. Michelins or nothing...

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: MParr
Our local Firestone Store is run by a bunch of sharlitans. You go in there and tell them what you want and here comes the computer printout and them trying to sell you a bunch of other things. I bought a set of General Altimax RT43 based on a Tire Rack recommendation and those things were junk. Your Hyundai dealer sells other tires than OE.

Interesting, I have them on three out of the four cars in my sig and I have them as winter tires for two of them. I haven't had a bit of trouble with them, certainly not anything that would qualify as "junk" status. What specific issues have you had?