Displaced displacement

[ridgerunner]

Just a thought...why does Europe and other countries produce engines with a small dispacement and lots of cylinders while the USA makes large displacement engines with fewer cylinders, or the same amount of cylinders with much more displacement.

 

[RooflessVW]

Refinement.

 

[Brybo86]

Examples? Ferrari v12?
Or are you talking about normal people cars.

 

[E150GT]

I think the trend here is smaller engines unless its a truck. or a dodge something or other. they seem to be stuffing big engines into anything.

 

[CR94]

1. Cheap gasoline
2. Pushrods
3. The "bigger is better" syndrome

 

[Snagglefoot]

There ain’t no replacement for displacement. But seriously, the USA is going smaller in some respects: witness the 2.7 Ecoboost in the F-150 and also the 3.0 liter Turbo diesel.

 

[vavavroom]

Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Refinement.


I can agree with that to a point, But beyond Supercars & Ultra high end luxury cars....How many V10/V12 powerplants are there?

Big bore V8's can be refined & smooth....The GM LTx engines are a prime example. The Northstar was a high revving/smooth/quiet/refined engine that everyone loves to hate...Even though it was as reliable & definitely cheaper to fix than similar European V8 engines.

The Ford Intech 32v 4.6L was another one that should have got some RWD sedan action besides the Mark VIII (with a supercharger) Though the Jaguar 4.2L was very similar with a TON of problems.

Most are going to smaller displacement & turbochargers, Ford & VAG have put all their eggs in that basket it seems.

 

[edhackett]

Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.


This is the primary reason. Here's a Wiki article that gives the formulas that were used and explains the reasoning for the small bore engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower

An example would be Alfa Romeo's "Jr." models. As displacement increased to the 2L size as standard, they produced a 1300cc model of the car called the Jr. for those who would prefer to pay less tax.

Ed

 

[IndyIan]

The V6 1.8L Mazda MX-3 was an odd japanese displacement tax motor. I've never been in one, but my Dad had the similar 2.5L V6 in his 626 and it seemed pretty exotic compared to the bigger pushrod GM V6's we had before that. I think 2.5l was another step up in japan's displacement tax, so mazda put a variable intake runner system on it to boost hp a bit. In a NA car at the time to get 170hp, the engines were quite a bit larger in displacement.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
The V6 1.8L Mazda MX-3 was an odd japanese displacement tax motor. I've never been in one, but my Dad had the similar 2.5L V6 in his 626 and it seemed pretty exotic compared to the bigger pushrod GM V6's we had before that. I think 2.5l was another step up in japan's displacement tax, so mazda put a variable intake runner system on it to boost hp a bit. In a NA car at the time to get 170hp, the engines were quite a bit larger in displacement.


I had a very loyal customer that owned a 1993 MX-3 1.8L V6 & a 1995 Millenia Supercharged 2.3L V6, To be honest.....I HATED both of those cars.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.


Well the high cost of gasoline in Europe is basically due to their higher taxes which they use for various social programs. In the US, it's much less, basically federal and state road tax.

The reason for the smaller engine trend now is due to CAFE and of course when oil was almost $150 a barrel, that forced manufacturers to focus more on fuel efficiency. That focus lapped a little after the prices came down but CAFE is forcing it again.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.

1. Taxing displacement.

2. Insurance for hp (focus on torque).

3. High cost of gas/diesel.

It is expensive to drive car in Europe. However, due to that no one bankrupts from calling ambulance.

 

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.


This is the primary reason. Here's a Wiki article that gives the formulas that were used and explains the reasoning for the small bore engines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower

An example would be Alfa Romeo's "Jr." models. As displacement increased to the 2L size as standard, they produced a 1300cc model of the car called the Jr. for those who would prefer to pay less tax.

Ed



And the Citroen 2CV which translates to "2 hp" even though it made more. But they were "tax horsepower" which you can cheat through engine design.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Tighter (old roman) roads and city plans mean smaller cars, smaller cars mean more compact engines, so European performance engines would have more cylinders (V12s), smaller bores, shorter strokes (because undersquare engines rev higher, which is how you get power out of a small displacement motor). Regular passenger cars would use V6's or smaller straight 6's and 4's.

In North America roadways were not really in existence prior to the 20th century, so they could be planned out and built with room for automobiles, not chariots. There were of course horse and buggy trails but not many so there was little reason to use that as a basis for roadwork. Bigger, straighter roads mean bigger cars naturally evolve, and the V8 motor is compact for a larger vehicle, so it evolved here. The depression killed the long motors (V12, V16) in North America and the V8 killed the straight8.

Fuel economy was important in North America, the majority of cars sold up until the late 1960's were straight 6's, even in trucks. Buick's mid-60's V6 formed the basis of future GM V6 development; other North American OEMs didn't use that form until they later developed new designs.

Japan developed V6's because they fit in the same chassis as straight4s, and fuel economy was a huge issue for a nation that imported all oil and where most workers were quite poor up until recently (1970s).

Prices of fuel is all relative, once you get past natural advantages or disadvantages. For example gas is expensive in Norway and a cocktail at a bar will run you $US 15, but they have the highest average wages in the world ($US 75,990 2015), no government debt, and trillions in a "rainy day" fund that continues to grow every year. On the other hand gasoline in Iran is $US 29c a litre ($US 1.07/gallon). Where would you rather live?

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.

I worked with two Italian guys who were on two year transfers to the US, and our company gave them money to buy cars while they were in the US.
They both said that they could not afford cars with displacements greater than 2.0l in Italy due to the taxes.
One guy spent forever finding the "perfect" 2.0l car and was bumming rides in the months he took to actually buy something...and then ended up leaving the company and staying in the US after two years.
The other guy bought an SUV with a good sized V6 right away, had tons of fun with it, and then sold it before he went home. He thought all of the US was like the Wild West and would drive around in any empty field he saw anywhere, surprised he never got shot or arrested for it.

They both agreed that "Italian" food in the US was horrendous but loved cheap steakhouses like Sizzler or Golden Corral. We went to a TGI Friday's kind of place one night and they insisted on ordering bruschetta, then tried to correct the waitress about saying "brooshetta" over and over until they finally realized it was hopeless. When she put the stuff on the table, they both looked like she had just thrown a dead rat on the table.
"What eez zees?"
"That's the brooshetta you ordered."
"Zees eez not bruschetta!"
They both inspected the stuff like it was something they were supposed to dissect and then howled with laughter.
But take them to Ponderosa and they were in heaven...I told them I would take them to a REAL steakhouse and buy them good steaks (they were great pals and I enjoyed them a lot), and they would just shake their heads and swear, "CANNOT be better zan zees!"
One of them came back from the salad bar at a cheapo steak place holding a cube of jello between thumb and forefinger like it might be radioactive and/or poisonous and queried me, "WHAT eez ZEES!"
I told him it was jello, a dessert made from hides and hooves that was very popular with US kids.
His solemn response was, "Now I am ready to die!", and he then asked me if he could mail it to his mother in Italy.
I miss both of them a lot, visited with one in Italy over ten years ago and I have no idea what happened to the guy who stayed in the US.

 

[Al]

2.0L 250HP HP is changing all of that.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: vavavroom
Many European countries tax engine displacement, while horsepower output affects insurance rates. That combined with higher fuel cost results in a trend towards smaller displacement engines, which are often turbo-charged.

I worked with two Italian guys who were on two year transfers to the US, and our company gave them money to buy cars while they were in the US.
They both said that they could not afford cars with displacements greater than 2.0l in Italy due to the taxes.
One guy spent forever finding the "perfect" 2.0l car and was bumming rides in the months he took to actually buy something...and then ended up leaving the company and staying in the US after two years.
The other guy bought an SUV with a good sized V6 right away, had tons of fun with it, and then sold it before he went home. He thought all of the US was like the Wild West and would drive around in any empty field he saw anywhere, surprised he never got shot or arrested for it.

They both agreed that "Italian" food in the US was horrendous but loved cheap steakhouses like Sizzler or Golden Corral. We went to a TGI Friday's kind of place one night and they insisted on ordering bruschetta, then tried to correct the waitress about saying "brooshetta" over and over until they finally realized it was hopeless. When she put the stuff on the table, they both looked like she had just thrown a dead rat on the table.
"What eez zees?"
"That's the brooshetta you ordered."
"Zees eez not bruschetta!"
They both inspected the stuff like it was something they were supposed to dissect and then howled with laughter.
But take them to Ponderosa and they were in heaven...I told them I would take them to a REAL steakhouse and buy them good steaks (they were great pals and I enjoyed them a lot), and they would just shake their heads and swear, "CANNOT be better zan zees!"
One of them came back from the salad bar at a cheapo steak place holding a cube of jello between thumb and forefinger like it might be radioactive and/or poisonous and queried me, "WHAT eez ZEES!"
I told him it was jello, a dessert made from hides and hooves that was very popular with US kids.
His solemn response was, "Now I am ready to die!", and he then asked me if he could mail it to his mother in Italy.
I miss both of them a lot, visited with one in Italy over ten years ago and I have no idea what happened to the guy who stayed in the US.


After successfully introducing Guiness to an American exchange student (I'm sure you can get it in the US but this was a long time ago and he claimed not to have had it before), I unfortunately failed to dissuade him from ordering pizza in an Edinburgh chip shop.

These are often owned and run by Italians, but the pizzas owe nothing to Italy.

DEEP FRIED, tough, saturated and bubbling with grease.

Think fried clutch plate and you have a rough idea.

Fortunately not an Italian-American, but still, THE HORROR.

You people think you OWN junk food? Ha!

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: Ducked

After successfully introducing Guiness to an American exchange student (I'm sure you can get it in the US but this was a long time ago and he claimed not to have had it before), I unfortunately failed to dissuade him from ordering pizza in an Edinburgh chip shop.
These are often owned and run by Italians, but the pizzas owe nothing to Italy.
DEEP FRIED, tough, saturated and bubbling with grease.
Think fried clutch plate and you have a rough idea.
Fortunately not an Italian-American, but still, THE HORROR.
You people think you OWN junk food? Ha!


Guinness is often pretty skunky in the US, especially in the bottle...seems like on tap is luckier for me. I like it a lot when it is fresh!

Those pizzas sound awful...but, I am honestly surprised that the US did not take the lead in inventing deep fried pizza. We have deep fried butter sticks, snickers, pickles, and most everything else you can think of. Maybe Mexico beat us to deep fried ice cream?

I have seen videos of Chinese pizza with the waving fish slices on top...man, I would have to be well assured that it was going to taste GREAT to cram that in my gullet.

 

[PandaBear]

Man this discussion makes me hungry for pizza.

I still remember fondly of a "Thai seafood pizza" in a Hong Kong Pizza Hut. Thai red curry base instead of tomato sauce, then all kinds of seafood on it. Unfortunately they no longer sell it.