Going Against The Grain

[mbacfp]

On a local community forum, a gentleman got a Tesla for his 55th birthday. He posted pictures and a video of its self-driving. Am I the only one that isn’t excited with self-driving?

Got me thinking, whether this is being done on purpose, or just an innocent by-product of technological advancements - our society is becoming less self-reliant and less human. Perhaps I feel this way because I’ve spent half my life with no Internet (38 years old) and now living in this technological age. Just curious if I am the only one feeling this way.

For the record, my first job at 16 was data base programming, so I participate in the Tech lifestyle just was much as the next person. Also guilty of being too connected at times with my smart phone and posting on here

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

LOL if you don't want to drive call a Taxi or Uber!

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: mbacfp
Got me thinking, whether this is being done on purpose, or just an innocent by-product of technological advancements - our society is becoming less self-reliant and less human.


Doesn't bother me. No interest in learning how to gut and skin animals, nor having to stoke the fire up at night to keep the house warm. Saw my own 2x4's, mold my own tires, distill my own gas. IMO mankind has been into specialization for a very long time (how many sailors make good farmers?).

Only thing I might bemoan is how we avoid learning a little bit about a lot of things. I might not want to reshingle my roof but it'd be good to know what flashing is. Might not want to know about a particular surgery but it might be good to know all six procedures so I could have an intelligent conversation with the doc. For some people, knowing a little might be a dangerous thing (they might think they are now qualified to do the job) but for many they'd have a much better understanding of why it costs so much to do something.

 

[wemay]

I can respect that, supton. But some folks like dressing game and stoking a fire. I still enjoy driving. I for one am not a fan of self-driving vehicles but i concede the technology is headed in that direction.

 

[supton]

I've got nothing against people who like doing those things. Some things I'm interested in learning about, but not vocationally. Some things I have zero interest in.

If fully autonomous driving becomes real, I might be interested. Right now I avoid using cruise control on my 50 minute highway commute. But after seeing the same scenery for some 15 years now, I'm ready to sit in the back and surf the web on the commute.

Or maybe even start my work day (answer emails say, or paperwork activities).

I'm ok with automation when it works reliably and works better than I could do it. And isn't cost prohibitive.

 

[AZjeff]

Something I'm curious about is it seems acceptable for a human to make a mistake while driving but we seem to expect these cars to be perfect. At least the media seems to. Or I guess it's accepted that humans make mistakes but not these machines.

 

[typ901]

Ill take autonomous for my daily 5pm crawl in Chicagoland bumper -to -bumper traffic. Otherwise no, I enjoy driving, not stop and go traffic crawl.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Something I'm curious about is it seems acceptable for a human to make a mistake while driving but we seem to expect these cars to be perfect. At least the media seems to. Or I guess it's accepted that humans make mistakes but not these machines.


I think it’s more the matter of transfer of liability in a sue happy society.

If you’re in control of the maintenance and operation of your machine, then you’re 100% liable for its outcome. If you’re buying safety critical software that is operating your machine, then there’s an expectation that the vendor made it foolproof. Otherwise the question is if the owner naturally can pass liability to the vendor.

 

[Californiabob]

first off, this is the zeroth generation - starting out. there are so
many mistakes deliberately made in the self-driving algorithms.

there was a crash where control was passed back to a driver to avoid taking
the blame for the crash that only a fast computer could avoid.

Earlier a truck with a totally white side went across the car and the
car did not stop at all and killed the occupant.

then there's the fact that with sonar, lidar, sound, video they still can't
avoid barriers along the side or in front.

there's the human fact that when you see a potential problem in the front, the
second thing you do is look in the rear view mirror. none of these systems
have anything pointing to the rear.


here's the reason. for cost reductions the programmers are H1B visa guys
who only get their driver's licenses once they're here. No 5-6 generations
of Americans driving all sorts of cars, trucks, dune buggies, off-roaders,
tractors, combines, scooters, motorcycles, and have been reading car&driver
Road&track since the 1950's.

If it were me directing this exercise, I would survey all American drivers for
their input, then design a portable transponder system (trillions in retro-fit
licenses) so the million self-driving cars made by 15 different car manufacturers
don't get killed by the 300 million cars that are not self-drivers.

having driven in many countries (left and right hand drives) there are major
differences between traffic in Bangkok, Hong Kong, and NYC.

if it ever gets here I'd wouldn't want anyone I cared about in them unless
there are another dozen airbags pushing sharp metal away when some autonomous
truck carrying 10 tons of car batteries crashes through a barrier and hits you.

 

[ZeeOSix]

People are becoming too brain dead to pay attention to driving that they can't find the brain power or attention to actually control a car anymore ... strange evolution of a supposedly intelligent being.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Something I'm curious about is it seems acceptable for a human to make a mistake while driving but we seem to expect these cars to be perfect. At least the media seems to. Or I guess it's accepted that humans make mistakes but not these machines.


I think it’s more the matter of transfer of liability in a sue happy society.

If you’re in control of the maintenance and operation of your machine, then you’re 100% liable for its outcome. If you’re buying safety critical software that is operating your machine, then there’s an expectation that the vendor made it foolproof. Otherwise the question is if the owner naturally can pass liability to the vendor.


It's not a sue happy society that should be driving the debate.

If I reach over from the passenger seat while my wife is driving, and jerk the wheel for whatever reason, I (under Oz law) have taken part ownership in the outcome...under the influence when you do it, it's DUI.

The purveyors of these new technologies can claim all they want that it's the human in the driver's seat that's ultimately responsible, and people fall for it.

But as I've posted over and again from industry experience, the less engaged the operator is through automation, the slower they are to react to an abnormal incident, having to build the model in their head before providing corrective actions.

So firstly, it's the entity Tesla that is driving the car, so they should have the lion's share of the outcome of an incident.

Secondly, they can't just write a line in the owner's manual transferring that liability to the driver when it is under their control...well they can, but it shouldn't be considered a legality.

 

[AZjeff]

Well put CaliBob and manfromOz. There seems to be a basic flaw in the self-driving model that the manufacturers push, that is they repeatedly insist that the driver be attentive and ready to intervene if needed. WHATTHEHECK is the point of a self-driving car if you have to be as engaged mentally and ready to wrest control away from HAL in an instant??? The point is to be able to check your Facebook or do your eyelashes or take a nap or turn around backwards and play cards with your passengers and let HAL drive.

If you've seen the video of the incident in Tempe where the Uber killed the ped at night the human element, (gender unknown..) was undoubtedly looking down at a smartphone not minding the store. Yeah and this is in a car that's experimental. People are taking naps while "driving".

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Californiabob

here's the reason. for cost reductions the programmers are H1B visa guys
who only get their driver's licenses once they're here. No 5-6 generations
of Americans driving all sorts of cars, trucks, dune buggies, off-roaders,
tractors, combines, scooters, motorcycles, and have been reading car&driver
Road&track since the 1950's.



This section of your statement is borderline inaccurate and offensive.

I know one team in a company for driver less program, and at least 1/2 of them are US born and raised, the other 1/2 has probably been driving longer than the first 1/2 ever alive.

BTW, US driving test is almost the easiest to pass in the world, with the widest lane size (to fit all these SUVs), etc. Having driven in other countries you should have known by now.

The hardest part of driving is to focus on the road and not playing with smart phone, getting high or drunk, or following too close. A typical American drivers are no better in this department than foreign drivers, and no dune buggies, off-roading, tractors, or reading car&driver will help you with that.

 

[555]

We are bags of plasma with wallets.
If the car is driving itself what are the odds the occupant(s) is looking at a screen? Smartphone or the dashboard?
Advertising advertising advertising.
Don't look at the world outside your window, there's stuff on a tiny screen you should know about.

 

[RooflessVW]

I love driving. I love my car.

But I can honestly think of nothing better than flipping an AI switch when stuck in mind-numbing, barely moving traffic.

Imagine being able to drive until you're tired. Pull off, fill up, get back on the highway and catch up on some sleep.

I welcome our future robot overlords. Some cars will turn into even more boring breadboxes. The exciting cars will still be exciting, with a switch for when they're not.

That's my hope, anyway. Otherwise you'll have to pry my "vintage" autos from my cold dead fingers.

 

[sloinker]

I think the initial onslaught of autonomous cars mixed with human driven cars will result in a rash of accidents. As more autonomous cars and fewer human driven cars are on the road then the accidents will decrease. When there are only autonomous cars on the road the accidents will be very rare and the number of personally owned vehicles will plummet as every car is a driver-less uber.

 

[edwardh1]

called early adopters, maybe leave the window sticker on too

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: sloinker
I think the initial onslaught of autonomous cars mixed with human driven cars will result in a rash of accidents. As more autonomous cars and fewer human driven cars are on the road then the accidents will decrease. When there are only autonomous cars on the road the accidents will be very rare and the number of personally owned vehicles will plummet as every car is a driver-less uber.


Roads have changed a lot after the introduction of "cars", both drivers and the roads evolved over time, and I'm sure driving test was introduced and adjusted over time as well.

Nothing is perfect right away, what I'm more concerned about is there's no driving test for driver less car yet. To me that sounds like a little bug not caught by the programmer can cause fatality in the real world, and every time the AI is updated it should go through a DMV test, to make sure it is at least "reasonably" safe before releasing to the street.

I'm sure the "humans and their vehicles" "road construction barriers and signs" transponders will be introduced sooner or later, with insurance discount.

 

[mbacfp]

I love technology. Not sure I am ready to give up certain things I enjoy. If we are so excited about driver less cars, why not pilot less airplanes? I guess my ultimate point is when does technology advance into the ridiculous? I concede driver less cars isn't a ridiculous concept, but not sure I will like it if I can't drive anymore because of an all or nothing choice. Great stuff as usual. Hope everyone is well.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
This section of your statement is borderline inaccurate and offensive.

I know one team in a company for driver less program, and at least 1/2 of them are US born and raised, the other 1/2 has probably been driving longer than the first 1/2 ever alive.

BTW, US driving test is almost the easiest to pass in the world, with the widest lane size (to fit all these SUVs), etc. Having driven in other countries you should have known by now.

The hardest part of driving is to focus on the road and not playing with smart phone, getting high or drunk, or following too close. A typical American drivers are no better in this department than foreign drivers, and no dune buggies, off-roading, tractors, or reading car&driver will help you with that.


If it was borderline why even post other than to virtue signal? Us proles are entitled to our opinions that may be uncomfortable to your Silicon Valley sensibilities!