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Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: 2015_PSD] #4835444
08/09/18 02:00 PM
08/09/18 02:00 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
What 0W-20 M1 oil is rated #1 and #2? AFE and EP are the only two oils I frequently see and AFE is listed.

AP recently came out with a 0W-20 so which witch is which?

PQIA has only tested the vanilla M1 0W-20. Unfortunately, there is no data on EP or AP. I would expect these to have better base oils and have higher BOQI indexes than the vanilla M1 but we can't know without actual data.

Also, the latest data (2017) for the vanilla M1 is the #5-ranked one.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: 2015Corolla] #4835467
08/09/18 02:22 PM
08/09/18 02:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 2015Corolla
The current champion is less than 4 bucks a quart?

welcome

Ha! You're indeed right that Genuine Nissan Motor Oil (GNMO) 0W-20 SN by ExxonMobil is the current BOQI champion! I didn't realize that.

The MSDS (link) is claiming that it's mostly GTL. It's interesting that many oils made by ExxonMobil recently are using GTL. Good for ExxonMobil oils, as GTL is a great base oil! It's also interesting that these are scoring higher than the Pennzoil PurePlus GTL-based oils.

Some caveats (PQIA link): There is no moly but there is some titanium. There is no magnesium but there is some sodium, not sure if it's a detergent.

It's amazing that you can get arguably the oil with the world's best base oil tested by PQIA for $3.83 a quart with free shipping and no tax.



Good catch!


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4835478
08/09/18 02:31 PM
08/09/18 02:31 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Online content
HKPolice  Online Content

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 2015Corolla
The current champion is less than 4 bucks a quart?

welcome

Ha! You're indeed right that Genuine Nissan Motor Oil (GNMO) 0W-20 SN by ExxonMobil is the current BOQI champion! I didn't realize that.

The MSDS (link) is claiming that it's mostly GTL. It's interesting that many oils made by ExxonMobil recently are using GTL. Good for ExxonMobil oils, as GTL is a great base oil! It's also interesting that these are scoring higher than the Pennzoil PurePlus GTL-based oils.

Some caveats (PQIA link): There is no moly but there is some titanium. There is no magnesium but there is some sodium, not sure if it's a detergent.

It's amazing that you can get arguably the oil with the world's best base oil tested by PQIA for $3.83 a quart with free shipping and no tax.



Good catch!


Virgin TBN of 7.71 is very low. This oil is probably only good for ~7K miles max. You get what you pay for in this case.

Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: HKPolice] #4835537
08/09/18 03:25 PM
08/09/18 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Virgin TBN of 7.71 is very low. This oil is probably only good for ~7K miles max. You get what you pay for in this case.

Perhaps in theory but not necessarily at all in real practice.

I ran the original formulation of TGMO 0W-20 SN by ExxonMobil, which had a virgin TBN of only 6.20, several times. I never had issues with neither TBN nor TAN in my UOA's, TBN always staying above TAN, despite running it in a very old engine. Needless to say, Toyota recommends a 10,000-mile OCI on it. You can Google my TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA and UOA's. I don't know anyone who had TBN issues with it either.

Regarding the price, it's merely a bargain catch on eBay. I bet the Nissan dealer charges you $10 - 12 a quart. Once the guy on eBay sells out his stock, you will never be able to get this extremely low price of $3.83 a quart with free shipping and no tax.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4835640
08/09/18 05:32 PM
08/09/18 05:32 PM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
HKPolice Online content
HKPolice  Online Content

Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 553
Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
Virgin TBN of 7.71 is very low. This oil is probably only good for ~7K miles max. You get what you pay for in this case.

Perhaps in theory but not necessarily at all in real practice.

I ran the original formulation of TGMO 0W-20 SN by ExxonMobil, which had a virgin TBN of only 6.20, several times. I never had issues with neither TBN nor TAN in my UOA's, TBN always staying above TAN, despite running it in a very old engine. Needless to say, Toyota recommends a 10,000-mile OCI on it. You can Google my TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA and UOA's. I don't know anyone who had TBN issues with it either.

Regarding the price, it's merely a bargain catch on eBay. I bet the Nissan dealer charges you $10 - 12 a quart. Once the guy on eBay sells out his stock, you will never be able to get this extremely low price of $3.83 a quart with free shipping and no tax.


I don't trust wear check for their virgin TBN analysis. 6.2 is way too low and other VOAs have revealed the old TGMO formula at around 8 TBN new: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8410-toyota-genuine-0w-20-kanistra-plastik/

The newest TGMO has a virgin TBN of 10 confirmed by both oil club & PQIA: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/31986...ka-new-svezhee/ http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html

This indicates that Toyota knew that a TBN of 8 was borderline for their 10K mile interval so they increased it to 10. They wouldn't have changed the formula otherwise.

Your UOA on the old Toyota 4A isn't representative of modern engines that run much hotter & leaner for fuel economy reasons, so it's much lighter on oil than a short tripped modern TGDI for example.

A 7.71 TBN in the Nissan oil may hit 10K miles if the car was never short tripped especially in an older less stressful engine. But throw in 50% city traffic short tripping into the mix and things don't look good beyond 5K miles, especially since the add pack is all calcium (magnesium add backs are better at TBN retention).

Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: HKPolice] #4835677
08/09/18 06:26 PM
08/09/18 06:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: HKPolice
I don't trust wear check for their virgin TBN analysis. 6.2 is way too low and other VOAs have revealed the old TGMO formula at around 8 TBN new: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/8410-toyota-genuine-0w-20-kanistra-plastik/

The newest TGMO has a virgin TBN of 10 confirmed by both oil club & PQIA: http://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/31986...ka-new-svezhee/ http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html

This indicates that Toyota knew that a TBN of 8 was borderline for their 10K mile interval so they increased it to 10. They wouldn't have changed the formula otherwise.

Your UOA on the old Toyota 4A isn't representative of modern engines that run much hotter & leaner for fuel economy reasons, so it's much lighter on oil than a short tripped modern TGDI for example.

A 7.71 TBN in the Nissan oil may hit 10K miles if the car was never short tripped especially in an older less stressful engine. But throw in 50% city traffic short tripping into the mix and things don't look good beyond 5K miles, especially since the add pack is all calcium (magnesium add backs are better at TBN retention).

Oh, we now trust an obscure Russian oil blog that used the Russian test method "GlagolOTC 30050" for TBN for the previous formulation of TGMO?

There are two standard test methods for TBN: ASTM D-2896 and ASTM D-4739. The former is used for virgin oil and the latter is used for used oil. ASTM D-2896 indeed gives a higher value than ASTM D-4739, perhaps higher by about 1. PQIA uses ASTM D-2896. The Russian blog used ASTM-2896 for the new formulation of TGMO and it checked with PQIA. Nevertheless, as someone pointed out, TGMO was again reformulated last year, for which we don't have any test data.

ASTM D-4739: Standard test method for ba...itration (link)

WearCheck is very professional. They normally work only with fleets and industry but I was able to create an account with them. I don't know which of the two ASTM methods they normally use for TBN.

Blackstone got 6.84 on TGMO 0W-20 SN in 2011(link). It was 7.0 for TGMO 0W-20 SM. They use ASTM D-4739.

Do you think we should multiply TBN by 1,000 to convert it into the maximum OCI in miles? Is it supported by any evidence?

What about the virgin-oil TAN?

Keep in mind that when the base-oil quality increases, such as when they use PAO or GTL base oils, TBN requirement decreases, as most acids are caused by base-oil oxidation, in addition to sulfation by fuel (less of a problem in areas with low-sulfur gas such as in California and Europe) and nitration by combustion.

So, is it our conclusion that neither Nissan nor ExxonMobil has no I idea what they're doing? This is the newly introduced GTL-based official OEM oil for Nissan cars and it's supposed to last for at least their normal 10,000-mile OCI.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4835718
08/09/18 06:59 PM
08/09/18 06:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Oh, we now trust an obscure Russian oil blog that used the Russian test method "GlagolOTC 30050" for TBN for the previous formulation of TGMO?

Ha! The Russian guys concluded that the new TGMO (well, the 2015 formulation, not the 2017) is GTL through their FTIR (Fourier-transform infrared spectroscopy). This is the conclusion I reached using my base-oil-quality index (BOQI). I like these guys! Perhaps I'll let them use my BOQI. wink Thanks for the link.

They also concluded that the moly used is Molyvan 855 by Vanderbilt, not the Infineum trinuclear moly. Again, I like these guys! These guys are very knowledgeable indeed.

Oil-Club Russia test of TGMO 0W-20 SN (2015 formulation)



1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4835978
08/09/18 11:45 PM
08/09/18 11:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 22
Tennessee
2015Corolla Offline
2015Corolla  Offline

Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 22
Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
[quote=HKPolice]Regarding the price, it's merely a bargain catch on eBay. I bet the Nissan dealer charges you $10 - 12 a quart. Once the guy on eBay sells out his stock, you will never be able to get this extremely low price of $3.83 a quart with free shipping and no tax.


The ebay seller, Conyers Nissan, is a dealer. They also sell through Amazon. If you search google, there a couple more sites than sell it for less than $4.


2015 Toyota Corolla LE Eco
Ravenol ECS 0w-20
FRAM Ultra XG10358
FRAM Ultra XGA10190
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: 2015Corolla] #4835986
08/10/18 12:32 AM
08/10/18 12:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 2015Corolla
The ebay seller, Conyers Nissan, is a dealer. They also sell through Amazon. If you search google, there a couple more sites than sell it for less than $4.

They all seem to be the same seller -- Conyers Nissan. If you walk into a random Nissan dealer, they will ask for $8 - 12 from my experience with TGMO.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4836213
08/10/18 09:10 AM
08/10/18 09:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,018
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline

Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 10,018
...
The Mazda Genuine Motor Oil can be had for $8.60 a quart through the link below. They do offer sales prices on occasion as well.

https://www.mazdaparts.org/20macxma.html


The Mazda oil also made by Idemitsu has very high moly levels.


2017 Mazda CX5
Havoline Pro DS 0w20
Roki OEM filter.
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4836960
08/11/18 01:35 AM
08/11/18 01:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
What 0W-20 M1 oil is rated #1 and #2? AFE and EP are the only two oils I frequently see and AFE is listed. AP recently came out with a 0W-20 so which witch is which?
PQIA has only tested the vanilla M1 0W-20. Unfortunately, there is no data on EP or AP. I would expect these to have better base oils and have higher BOQI indexes than the vanilla M1 but we can't know without actual data. Also, the latest data (2017) for the vanilla M1 is the #5-ranked one.
So a bit worthless without proper identifiers...because you would simply be guessing which oil it was.


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: 2015_PSD] #4836965
08/11/18 02:16 AM
08/11/18 02:16 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
So a bit worthless without proper identifiers...because you would simply be guessing which oil it was.

Actually, the names are exact copy and paste from the PQIA site. Rest assured; they include all identifiers. If you don't see Extended Protection or Annual Protection, it's the vanilla Mobil 1.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4837017
08/11/18 07:00 AM
08/11/18 07:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
2015_PSD Offline
2015_PSD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,852
Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
So a bit worthless without proper identifiers...because you would simply be guessing which oil it was.

Actually, the names are exact copy and paste from the PQIA site. Rest assured; they include all identifiers. If you don't see Extended Protection or Annual Protection, it's the vanilla Mobil 1.
No identifiers, so a duplication with different properties? smirk


2018 Mercedes Benz AMG GLC43 3.0L Bi-Turbo [Castrol Edge 0W-40 & MB (Purflux) filter]
2018 Mercedes Benz C300 2.0L Turbo [Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40 & Mann filter]
Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: Gokhan] #4837073
08/11/18 08:27 AM
08/11/18 08:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,539
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,539
Texas
No collusion with Russians! LoL, just kidding I certainly have, Bob

Re: List of 0W-20 oils by base-oil-quality index (BOQI): 2018 [Re: 2015_PSD] #4837384
08/11/18 02:43 PM
08/11/18 02:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,442
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
So a bit worthless without proper identifiers...because you would simply be guessing which oil it was.

Actually, the names are exact copy and paste from the PQIA site. Rest assured; they include all identifiers. If you don't see Extended Protection or Annual Protection, it's the vanilla Mobil 1.

No identifiers, so a duplication with different properties? smirk

Oh, didn't you notice the three different purchase dates, which are 1 - 2 years apart from each other?


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 276,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-and-AN-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
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