TGMO 0w20 vs. 0w16

[Astro_Guy]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.

Are you saying that my Toyota dealer hasn't been using 0w20 oil in my 2010 and 1017 Prius that call for it?

 

[Shannow]

Under CAFE rules, they must use every reasonable endeavour to make the end user use the grade of oil that the vehicle was certificated with.

So telling you to shorten the OCI if 0W16 isn't used is consistent with this.

To claim that it's to avoid engine damage and deposits that form after 25,000 miles, and that TGMO 0W20 is thus now inferior is farcical.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Under CAFE rules, they must use every reasonable endeavour to make the end user use the grade of oil that the vehicle was certificated with.

So telling you to shorten the OCI if 0W16 isn't used is consistent with this.

To claim that it's to avoid engine damage and deposits that form after 25,000 miles, and that TGMO 0W20 is thus now inferior is farcical.

Here we go again. You keep reflecting yourself on others as usual.

What is farcical is to claim that CAFE mandates shorter OCI's if you use thicker oil. As if changing oil frequently doesn't damage the environment but helps it. You have a very twisted mind, Shannow.

As I said, this is nothing new. Toyota allowed 10,000-mile OCI's on 0W-20 because it was synthetic and 5,000-mile OCI on 5W-20 because it was conventional. You know nothing about Toyota's; so, stop speculating about vehicles you're not familiar with.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Astro_Guy
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.

Are you saying that my Toyota dealer hasn't been using 0w20 oil in my 2010 and 1017 Prius that call for it?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Why wouldn't they use the specified 0W-20?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Under CAFE rules, they must use every reasonable endeavour to make the end user use the grade of oil that the vehicle was certificated with.

So telling you to shorten the OCI if 0W16 isn't used is consistent with this.

To claim that it's to avoid engine damage and deposits that form after 25,000 miles, and that TGMO 0W20 is thus now inferior is farcical.

There we go again. You keep reflecting yourself on others as usual.

What is farcical is to claim CAFE mandates shorter OCI's if you use thicker oil. As if changing oil frequently doesn't damage the environment but helps it. You have a very twisted mind, Shannow.


That's not what I said...I'll type slower this time, so try to keep up...CAFE requires that the OEMs take every reasonable endeavour to keep the grade in the sump that the car was qualified in...it has lead to
* single recommendations in owner's manuals
* and statements that if that grade wasn't used, that it MUST be used next OCI.
* and I believe that this is likely the case here, to "scare" the owner into going back to it.

That's my belief for their motivations, your dino 20W50 strawman notwithstanding.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.


Their statement holds for the whole range of viscosities, including what used to be your holy grail TGMO 0W20. Do you honestly think that's going to probably do harm to the engine ?

You understand the Stribeck curve, and the relationship between viscosity and additive performance and requirements. TGMO 0W20, or indeed Mobil 1 AFE 0W30 CANNOT damage the engine as you are postulating.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.


I disagree with your guess...vehemently.

Oh, and I've owned Toyotas before, so I guess I'm an expert too eh ?
For e.g. their 86 manuals in Oz are very different to the US...is that because of US sludge issues that don't occur in Oz ? or more likely the CAFE requirements in the US ?

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
That's my belief for their motivations

Exactly. So, put that clearly next time. When I made my claim, I said "My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them."

At least my claim is backed by tangible facts: For older Toyota's, TGMO 0W-20 and 5W-20 are Group III/10,000-mile OCI and Group II/5,000 mile-OCI. So, the OCI is correlated with the base-oil quality. It's the same with TGMO 0W-16 and 0W-20 -- you have GTL and Group III, respectively, and the OCI correlates with the base-oil quality again.

Where are your tangible facts (not beliefs)? Such as any document claiming that they can discourage owners from not using 0W-16 if they trick them with the OCI?

Lastly, let's assume that you're right for the argument's sake. Why in the world this OCI discrepancy is starting only after 25,000 miles then?

 

[bulwnkl]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.

It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.


That's not what our 2018 Camry's maintenance manual says. It says, starting from the beginning, that you must change the oil and filter at the 5,000 mile interval if "0W16/0W20 was not used" at the last oil change. So, there's nothing about this only starting after 25k miles. If there was, or _if_ there is on the hybrid only, the _far_ simpler and more sensible explanations are:
1) You missed it or they didn't put it in at the 15k service point by mistake, or
2) They don't want to reimburse their dealers for extra oil changes (maintenance is provided by Toyota until then).

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
You missed it or they didn't put it in at the 15k service point by mistake

Yes, I missed it on the 15,000-mile page:

2018 Toyota Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide
2018 Toyota Camry Hybrid owner's manual

 

[bulwnkl]

I had an email exchange with Toyota about the 0W20 put into my wife's leased '18 Camry (by a dealer) at the 10k service. Apart from the fact that I had some reservation as to whether they actually read my question(s) to them, their basic underlying response was that they would not participate in an effort to get the dealer to change the oil again at 15k.

I don't think Toyota thinks it's particularly important to use 0W16 in these cars (rather than 0W20), apart from _maybe_ their obligations relative to Clean Air Act or similar.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
I had an email exchange with Toyota about the 0W20 put into my wife's leased '18 Camry (by a dealer) at the 10k service. Apart from the fact that I had some reservation as to whether they actually read my question(s) to them, their basic underlying response was that they would not participate in an effort to get the dealer to change the oil again at 15k.

I don't think Toyota thinks it's particularly important to use 0W16 in these cars (rather than 0W20), apart from _maybe_ their obligations relative to Clean Air Act or similar.

Even if that was the case (they think 0W-20 is OK and 0W-16 is just a clean-air thing or something), it's their responsibility to follow the guide. I'm surprised that they refused.

 

[PimTac]

I’m guessing the difference between 0w16 and 20 could be called minute.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
I’m guessing the difference between 0w16 and 20 could be called minute.


But in a make believe world where you can say that the gap between GTL and GrIII+ is as wide as GrIII+ to mineral, minutia take on massive proportions.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I’m guessing the difference between 0w16 and 20 could be called minute.


But in a make believe world where you can say that the gap between GTL and GrIII+ is as wide as GrIII+ to mineral, minutia take on massive proportions.




I see what you are saying and it was the thought I was trying to put across in a earlier post. For example, If two different oils both meet A5-B5 specs yet one is majority PAO base and the other is majority GTL base, is one better than the other?

 

[nap]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
You missed it or they didn't put it in at the 15k service point by mistake

Yes, I missed it on the 15,000-mile page



Having trouble reading manuals, Gokhan?

 

[nap]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I’m guessing the difference between 0w16 and 20 could be called minute.


But in a make believe world where you can say that the gap between GTL and GrIII+ is as wide as GrIII+ to mineral, minutia take on massive proportions.




I see what you are saying and it was the thought I was trying to put across in a earlier post. For example, If two different oils both meet A5-B5 specs yet one is majority PAO base and the other is majority GTL base, is one better than the other?



You’ll first need to define “better”.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I’m guessing the difference between 0w16 and 20 could be called minute.


But in a make believe world where you can say that the gap between GTL and GrIII+ is as wide as GrIII+ to mineral, minutia take on massive proportions.




I see what you are saying and it was the thought I was trying to put across in a earlier post. For example, If two different oils both meet A5-B5 specs yet one is majority PAO base and the other is majority GTL base, is one better than the other?



You’ll first need to define “better”.





I asked the question. Re-read the comments

 

[NH73]

Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.

It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.


That's not what our 2018 Camry's maintenance manual says. It says, starting from the beginning, that you must change the oil and filter at the 5,000 mile interval if "0W16/0W20 was not used" at the last oil change. So, there's nothing about this only starting after 25k miles. If there was, or _if_ there is on the hybrid only, the _far_ simpler and more sensible explanations are:
1) You missed it or they didn't put it in at the 15k service point by mistake, or
2) They don't want to reimburse their dealers for extra oil changes (maintenance is provided by Toyota until then).


Ok, I need some clarification here. Now butwnkl says that it is OK to run 0w20 up to 10,000 miles in a 2018 Camry and earlier someone said it wasn't. Which one is it now?

If it isn't, someone needs to bring it up to Toyota about why the difference. If its purely for CAFE, you could run 0w20 10,000 miles.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
When I made my claim, I said "My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them."


Yes, you stated your claim was a guess. But you have a tendency to then posture as if your guesses are fact and get quite incensed when anybody has equally credible guesses, previous relations with Shannow not withstanding here.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
At least my claim is backed by tangible facts: For older Toyota's, TGMO 0W-20 and 5W-20 are Group III/10,000-mile OCI and Group II/5,000 mile-OCI. So, the OCI is correlated with the base-oil quality. It's the same with TGMO 0W-16 and 0W-20 -- you have GTL and Group III, respectively, and the OCI correlates with the base-oil quality again.


Personally, I don't see that Toyota's previously spec'd lubricant relationship allows for a parallel to be drawn between that scenario, and one that leverages one of those same lubricants but at now half the interval. Follow? If TGMO 0w-20 was good for a 10K OCI then, it is still good for a 10K OCI now, unless Toyota has intentionally reformulated it to be inferior, but then anything previously spec'd for it would be subject to a reduced OCI.

It's a pretty shaky posit, and certainly no more tangible than Shannow's guess that this is catering to the requirements of CAFE, where the manufacturer is, as he indicated, required to encourage the use of the "spec" lubricant for the application, which in this case would be the 0w-16.

I'm trying to go through the standards but my wife is chewing me out, so that'll have to wait.

 

[Astro_Guy]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Astro_Guy
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.

Are you saying that my Toyota dealer hasn't been using 0w20 oil in my 2010 and 1017 Prius that call for it?

I'm not sure what you're asking. Why wouldn't they use the specified 0W-20?

You highlighted "That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating." and yet my Toyota dealer does perform 10K OCIs on the two Prius we own. Are you saying that the dealer is using something other than TGMO 0w20 or what?

 

[nap]

API doesn’t guarantee or recommend any particular OCI. The 10000 miles figure for API SN is Galileo’s invention.