TGMO 0w20 vs. 0w16
- Thread starter NH73
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Not necessarily. TGMO 0W-20 is indeed "thinner" than typical 0W-20 when it's lukewarm, because it has a higher viscosity index. That doesn't mean it's closer to 0W-16 at the more critical operating temperatures, or at the temperature at which HTHS is measured.
Originally Posted By: NH73
I saw someone have posted the technical details of TGMO 0w20 as thinner than the typical 0w20. How do you thing it will compare with the typical 0w16. Could this make it easy for Toyota to backspec engines?
No, the whole idea is that Toyota is decreasing the HTHSV to improve the fuel economy. If TGMO 0W-16 had the same HTHSV as 0W-20, it would defeat its purpose.
TGMO 0W-20 HTHSV = 2.6 cP, which is also the SAE minimum.
TGMO 0W-16 HTHSV is probably 2.3 cP, which is the SAE minimum.
I saw someone have posted the technical details of TGMO 0w20 as thinner than the typical 0w20. How do you thing it will compare with the typical 0w16. Could this make it easy for Toyota to backspec engines?
No, the whole idea is that Toyota is decreasing the HTHSV to improve the fuel economy. If TGMO 0W-16 had the same HTHSV as 0W-20, it would defeat its purpose.
TGMO 0W-20 HTHSV = 2.6 cP, which is also the SAE minimum.
TGMO 0W-16 HTHSV is probably 2.3 cP, which is the SAE minimum.
can't wait for the 0w-16
Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
can't wait for the 0w-16
Its already out and spec'd for the Camry.
can't wait for the 0w-16
Its already out and spec'd for the Camry.
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
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Originally Posted By: Sierra048
... Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
0W-20 is allowed if you can't find 0W-16.
... Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
0W-20 is allowed if you can't find 0W-16.
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
If you are not going to follow the manual then it doesn’t really matter then, does it?
Mobil, Shell and Valvoline all have 0w16 oil available. I’m sure the other brands will follow soon as the need increases.
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
If you are not going to follow the manual then it doesn’t really matter then, does it?
Mobil, Shell and Valvoline all have 0w16 oil available. I’m sure the other brands will follow soon as the need increases.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
If you are not going to follow the manual then it doesn’t really matter then, does it?
Mobil, Shell and Valvoline all have 0w16 oil available. I’m sure the other brands will follow soon as the need increases.
Not looking for an argument. Just asked if the manual permitted another weight of oil. I'm not a triboligist by any means but an 0w-16 just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it makes Toyota happy to get a slight boost in their cafe numbers, I don't know. Not sure how many cars are spec'd for this lighter grade, or any long term usage stats to say how well it performs.
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
If you are not going to follow the manual then it doesn’t really matter then, does it?
Mobil, Shell and Valvoline all have 0w16 oil available. I’m sure the other brands will follow soon as the need increases.
Not looking for an argument. Just asked if the manual permitted another weight of oil. I'm not a triboligist by any means but an 0w-16 just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it makes Toyota happy to get a slight boost in their cafe numbers, I don't know. Not sure how many cars are spec'd for this lighter grade, or any long term usage stats to say how well it performs.
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Not looking for an argument. Just asked if the manual permitted another weight of oil. I'm not a triboligist by any means but an 0w-16 just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it makes Toyota happy to get a slight boost in their cafe numbers, I don't know. Not sure how many cars are spec'd for this lighter grade, or any long term usage stats to say how well it performs.
The problem here is not only the viscosity.
0W-16 uses the latest in base-oil technology (such as PAO and GTL) and latest in additive technology (such as the newly invented AW/EP/FM additives).
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
As a note, M1, Mobil Super, TGMO, and Castrol 0W-16 are PAO, GTL, GTL, and Group III, respectively. Since the base-oil quality goes as PAO > GTL > Group III, skip Castrol. PPPP (all viscosity grades) is also GTL.
Not looking for an argument. Just asked if the manual permitted another weight of oil. I'm not a triboligist by any means but an 0w-16 just doesn't do it for me. Maybe it makes Toyota happy to get a slight boost in their cafe numbers, I don't know. Not sure how many cars are spec'd for this lighter grade, or any long term usage stats to say how well it performs.
The problem here is not only the viscosity.
0W-16 uses the latest in base-oil technology (such as PAO and GTL) and latest in additive technology (such as the newly invented AW/EP/FM additives).
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
As a note, M1, Mobil Super, TGMO, and Castrol 0W-16 are PAO, GTL, GTL, and Group III, respectively. Since the base-oil quality goes as PAO > GTL > Group III, skip Castrol. PPPP (all viscosity grades) is also GTL.
Originally Posted By: Sierra048
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
The V6 Camry calls for 0W20.
Since me and Ms. Sierra048 are considering a new Camry, I just found out it is spec'd for 0w-16. If we get one, I won't be using the 0W-16. 5W-20 is what I would use while it's under warranty. Does anyone with a 2018 Camry know if the owner's manual blesses anything other than 0w-16?
The V6 Camry calls for 0W20.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.
It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.
It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.
It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
You can use anything you want -- go ahead; put in Castrol GTX 20W-50 dino -- but if you put in anything other than 0W-16, your OCI must be reduced from 10,000 miles to 5,000 miles or else you void the warranty and probably do harm to the engine as well.
Where does it say that? Has anyone ever produced a statement in the warranty booklet or owner's manual that deviating from the recommended (or even required) oil grade violates the warranty? We had a pretty good thread on this a while back and no one could do so.
That page I posted is from the 2018 Camry Hybrid warranty & maintenance guide.
It's not about deviating from 0W-16 -- it's about deviating from the OCI. Starting at 25,000 miles, the oil must be changed every 10,000 miles if 0W-16 is used and every 5,000 miles if 0W-16 is not used. If you use 0W-20 or higher, that's OK, but if you still do 10,000-mile OCI's instead of reducing them to 5,000 miles, that would void the warranty.
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
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Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
API SN and TGMO 0W-20 SN were introduced in 2010. A lot has changed in the base-oil and additive technology in the last eight years, with the oil and additive companies working hard to transition into ILSAC GF-6.
0W-16 didn't even exist then. It was supposed to be introduced in GF-6B but since that was delayed, they introduced it now. It's similar to the introduction of API SN PLUS, which is due to the delay in API SP.
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.
It's always safe to follow the owner's manuals and warranty & maintenance guides. If Toyota says that you can only do 10,000-mile OCI's with 0W-16, that's the last word on this matter. There is no point in insisting or consulting to the opinions in the Internet on that only the SN rating matters and the viscosity doesn't matter.
People who are familiar with Toyota's already know the background in this. This is no different than TGMO 5W-20 vs. TGMO 0W-20. The latter is synthetic and the former is conventional. They are both SN but Toyota only allows 10,000-miles OCI's on the 0W-20 because it's synthetic. Yet, "synthetic" is neither an API nor an OEM certification. The story is the same for TGMO 0W-20 vs 0W-16, the latter is a "better synthetic" than the former. Even though "synthetic" or "better synthetic" are not API certifications, Toyota implicitly enforces the requirement of a better synthetic for longer OCI's, just as they enforced the requirement of a synthetic for longer OCI's for 5W-20 vs. 0W-20.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
API SN and TGMO 0W-20 SN were introduced in 2010. A lot has changed in the base-oil and additive technology in the last eight years, with the oil and additive companies working hard to transition into ILSAC GF-6.
0W-16 didn't even exist then. It was supposed to be introduced in GF-6B but since that was delayed, they introduced it now. It's similar to the introduction of API SN PLUS, which is due to the delay in API SP.
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.
It's always safe to follow the owner's manuals and warranty & maintenance guides. If Toyota says that you can only do 10,000-mile OCI's with 0W-16, that's the last word on this matter. There is no point in insisting or consulting to the opinions in the Internet on that only the SN rating matters and the viscosity doesn't matter.
People who are familiar with Toyota's already know the background in this. This is no different than TGMO 5W-20 vs. TGMO 0W-20. The latter is synthetic and the former is conventional. They are both SN but Toyota only allows 10,000-miles OCI's on the 0W-20 because it's synthetic. Yet, "synthetic" is neither an API nor an OEM certification. The story is the same for TGMO 0W-20 vs 0W-16, the latter is a "better synthetic" than the former. Even though "synthetic" or "better synthetic" are not API certifications, Toyota implicitly enforces the requirement of a better synthetic for longer OCI's, just as they enforced the requirement of a synthetic for longer OCI's for 5W-20 vs. 0W-20.
Originally Posted By: Slick17601
Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
can't wait for the 0w-16
Its already out and spec'd for the Camry.
Toyota havent sell any Camry in EU for many years.
Originally Posted By: Bjornviken
can't wait for the 0w-16
Its already out and spec'd for the Camry.
Toyota havent sell any Camry in EU for many years.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
API SN and TGMO 0W-20 SN were introduced in 2010. A lot has changed in the base-oil and additive technology in the last eight years, with the oil and additive companies working hard to transition into ILSAC GF-6.
0W-16 didn't even exist then. It was supposed to be introduced in GF-6B but since that was delayed, they introduced it now. It's similar to the introduction of API SN PLUS, which is due to the delay in API SP.
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.
It's always safe to follow the owner's manuals and warranty & maintenance guides. If Toyota says that you can only do 10,000-mile OCI's with 0W-16, that's the last word on this matter. There is no point in insisting or consulting to the opinions in the Internet on that only the SN rating matters and the viscosity doesn't matter.
People who are familiar with Toyota's already know the background in this. This is no different than TGMO 5W-20 vs. TGMO 0W-20. The latter is synthetic and the former is conventional. They are both SN but Toyota only allows 10,000-miles OCI's on the 0W-20 because it's synthetic. Yet, "synthetic" is neither an API nor an OEM certification. The story is the same for TGMO 0W-20 vs 0W-16, the latter is a "better synthetic" than the former. Even though "synthetic" or "better synthetic" are not API certifications, Toyota implicitly enforces the requirement of a better synthetic for longer OCI's, just as they enforced the requirement of a synthetic for longer OCI's for 5W-20 vs. 0W-20.
So now, 0w20 is inferior to 0w16, which may be true. But it doesn't answer my question into "Why in my RAV4 says I can go 10,000 miles on 0w20. Did Toyota just realize that 0w20 isn't up to the task on a 10,000 mile OCI? If that the case, they should shorten my OCI.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: NH73
Toyota allowed 0w20 on 10,000 mile OCI. Why couldn't they still do that yet? What do you do before 25,000 miles?
Before 25,000 miles, 10,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16 but after 25,0000 miles, only 5,000-mile OCI's are allowed on non-0W-16. My guess is that around 25,000 miles, deposits and sludge start to form and they want the highest-quality oil to reduce them.
With every generation, oil quality increases. 0W-16 or more like API SP, which has been delayed, than API SN. TGMO 0W-20 is Group III but TGMO 0W-16 is GTL. M1 0W-16 went even higher in base-oil quality to PAO. On top of that, 0W-16 uses the latest additive technologies not available in many 0W-20's, if in any 0W-20 at all.
If TGMO is made by Mobil, wouldn’t it be using antiwear additive from them as well? Besides, baseoils are usually blends of different groups. The final judgement are the certifications which point to a performance standard.
As long as a oil meets or exceeds the standards it specifies the actual composition of the base doesn’t mean much.
API SN and TGMO 0W-20 SN were introduced in 2010. A lot has changed in the base-oil and additive technology in the last eight years, with the oil and additive companies working hard to transition into ILSAC GF-6.
0W-16 didn't even exist then. It was supposed to be introduced in GF-6B but since that was delayed, they introduced it now. It's similar to the introduction of API SN PLUS, which is due to the delay in API SP.
What people need to understand is that oil certifications aren't born out of thin air. ILSAC and API aren't an independent entities as some imagine them but merely a collaboration of companies like Toyota, GM, Lubrizol, ExxonMobil, etc. Therefore, when Toyota introduces 0W-16, they are doing research and development on it for many years in collaboration with the additive and oil companies. They aren't just going into a store and picking up a brand-new viscosity grade that was never used before. So, yes, the SN rating is not the whole story. That's why Toyota doesn't allow 10,000-mile OCI's on TGMO 0W-20 SN, despite its SN rating. OEM's and oil specs go hand-in-hand. That's why many OEM's simply prefer to have additional OEM specs, something which Toyota hasn't started yet.
It's always safe to follow the owner's manuals and warranty & maintenance guides. If Toyota says that you can only do 10,000-mile OCI's with 0W-16, that's the last word on this matter. There is no point in insisting or consulting to the opinions in the Internet on that only the SN rating matters and the viscosity doesn't matter.
People who are familiar with Toyota's already know the background in this. This is no different than TGMO 5W-20 vs. TGMO 0W-20. The latter is synthetic and the former is conventional. They are both SN but Toyota only allows 10,000-miles OCI's on the 0W-20 because it's synthetic. Yet, "synthetic" is neither an API nor an OEM certification. The story is the same for TGMO 0W-20 vs 0W-16, the latter is a "better synthetic" than the former. Even though "synthetic" or "better synthetic" are not API certifications, Toyota implicitly enforces the requirement of a better synthetic for longer OCI's, just as they enforced the requirement of a synthetic for longer OCI's for 5W-20 vs. 0W-20.
So now, 0w20 is inferior to 0w16, which may be true. But it doesn't answer my question into "Why in my RAV4 says I can go 10,000 miles on 0w20. Did Toyota just realize that 0w20 isn't up to the task on a 10,000 mile OCI? If that the case, they should shorten my OCI.
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