High volume oil pumps?

[dlundblad]

Are they necessary and do they work. You see them on RA and are recommended for HM vehicles.

I am guessing the filter could potentially be in bypass a bit more often since their settings would be based off a "factory" engine and pump configuration.

 

[Shannow]

In what application would you go applying an HV oil pump to an HM engine ?

Personally couldn't imagine doing that.

But if the engine's oil requirements were increased due to wear, then yes, HV oil pumps help deliver that needed oil...But if the oil pressure is adequate...never need an HV oil pump.

 

[Cujet]

In the case of the Ford 5.4L Modular V8, the high volume oil pump is an important modification for a higher mileage engine. The 5.4's can fail due to lack of top end oil. This is in part, because the stock pump bypasses some oil around it's sheet metal back plate, along with leaky chain tensioners and increased demand for oil elsewhere, and lower oil flow to the engine results. This also results in cam chain noise and phaser noise/issues.

One way to combat this issue is to use a higher viscosity oil. Many 5.4 owners switch to 10W-30 and 10W-40 to quiet the "ticks" that result when 5W-20 is used. In this case, those noises are communicating lack of sufficient oil to actuate the "leaky" tensioners and phasers. Over time, leading to failure. Including camshaft and cam bearing failure due to low oil flow.

It's no surprise that uber thin oils, high temperature operation combined with engine wear related increased flow-paths add up to problems.

 

[SOHCman]

yikes, is that a wiped cam cap?

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
In what application would you go applying an HV oil pump to an HM engine ?

Personally couldn't imagine doing that.

But if the engine's oil requirements were increased due to wear, then yes, HV oil pumps help deliver that needed oil...But if the oil pressure is adequate...never need an HV oil pump.


Just curious. I don’t have the need for one.

 

[goodtimes]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
In the case of the Ford 5.4L Modular V8, the high volume oil pump is an important modification for a higher mileage engine. The 5.4's can fail due to lack of top end oil. This is in part, because the stock pump bypasses some oil around it's sheet metal back plate, along with leaky chain tensioners and increased demand for oil elsewhere, and lower oil flow to the engine results. This also results in cam chain noise and phaser noise/issues.

One way to combat this issue is to use a higher viscosity oil. Many 5.4 owners switch to 10W-30 and 10W-40 to quiet the "ticks" that result when 5W-20 is used. In this case, those noises are communicating lack of sufficient oil to actuate the "leaky" tensioners and phasers. Over time, leading to failure. Including camshaft and cam bearing failure due to low oil flow.

It's no surprise that uber thin oils, high temperature operation combined with engine wear related increased flow-paths add up to problems.

The bearing is just aluminum? Is the journal pressurized? What made the scratches? Or is this the result of the bearing shell?

 

[Imp4]

OK, so first you stated:
Originally Posted By: Cujet
This is in part, because the stock pump bypasses some oil around it's sheet metal back plate, along with leaky chain tensioners and increased demand for oil elsewhere, and lower oil flow to the engine results. This also results in cam chain noise and phaser noise/issues.

And then you followed with:
Originally Posted By: Cujet
It's no surprise that uber thin oils, high temperature operation combined with engine wear related increased flow-paths add up to problems.

It seems that you're missing the gratuitous comment about designing oil pumps that bypass oil around their back plates adding up to problems.
But you sure got the comment about thin oils into there.

From a design perspective and as part of any DFMEA we would identify the bypass back plate failure mode as a much larger contributor to overall component and end item failure.
This is due to the robust design assumption that the component is expected to function as designed and the oil viscosity is a given as part of the design parameters.
That a consumer would have to combat the pump design flaw with a higher viscosity oil is not a shortcoming of the oil, rather it is evidence of the combined impact of the pump design and oil performance specs.
But the engineering team knows the oil viscosity design parameter when developing the design (please don't come with 'but they slapped 5w20 on afterward!', just don't).

What is under the control of the designers is the oil pump design spec, which in this case would be identified as the 'Red X' in failure mode analysis. In other words, the oil pump is the largest contributor to the bad outcome, given the required design parameters.

So in this case, it is most appropriate to let 'er rip on the oil pump design engineers.

Looking forward to your response!

 

[chainblu]

Normally HV pumps are used when you increase the total capacity of your oil system. Like adding oil coolers or a remote filter setup. They CAN be used to restore oil pressure to an engine with worn bearings, but it's not recommended.

Having said that, I once put a HV pump in a junkyard Chevy 350 that could only muster 25 psi at speed. (10 psi at idle) Pressure increased to over 50 psi. That engine lived to see several bottles of nitrous run thru it and was still purring along 10 years later when I pulled the engine out.

 

[FermeLaPorte]

I don't understand why people keep buying Ford. We had one and never again. At least Chevy engines, despite being mediocre, tend to be more reliable. If a Ford needs that modification when it reaches a certain mileage, it just means it is poorly designed.

I get Fords are cheap, but come on...

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: chainblu
Normally HV pumps are used when you increase the total capacity of your oil system. Like adding oil coolers or a remote filter setup. They CAN be used to restore oil pressure to an engine with worn bearings, but it's not recommended.

Having said that, I once put a HV pump in a junkyard Chevy 350 that could only muster 25 psi at speed. (10 psi at idle) Pressure increased to over 50 psi. That engine lived to see several bottles of nitrous run thru it and was still purring along 10 years later when I pulled the engine out.


And there lies the best reason for a high volume pump. Keeping a worn engine functional.

Originally Posted By: Imp4

It seems that you're missing the gratuitous comment about designing oil pumps that bypass oil around their back plates adding up to problems.


Believe it or not, I did not dismiss the oil pump's shortcomings as a major factor in the 5.4's problems. However, it's not the only problem. I mentioned that "some owners" use higher viscosity oils. I don't claim this fixes or repairs mechanical problems. Only that it helps keep a bad engine alive.

My only mistake was not choosing my words properly. "One way to combat this" is not really an accurate statement. I should have simply said that "Some owners use a higher viscosity oil to quiet down an engine with mechanical problems".

Originally Posted By: Imp4

From a design perspective and as part of any DFMEA we would identify the bypass back plate failure mode as a much larger contributor to overall component and end item failure.


That's because you probably don't have the complete picture yet. It matters not if the oil pump leaks, if pressure is within spec when new. The problem is multi faceted, and unfortunately, engine wear also plays a role. Quite simply, and sadly, the poorly designed oil pump is not the only chronic problem.

Leaky tensioner:

 

[379KITTY]

I can attempt to answer "why people keep buying Ford". After spending 20+ yrs working with rigs loaded to max GVW and used hard off-road, I can tell you first hand the GM trucks with IFS do not hold up under those conditions. Halfshafts and aluminum front diff housings don't compare with solid front axle for heavily loaded off-road use/abuse. And I'm a GM fan - always have been. Some of the longest lasting trouble free engines I've had have been GM. Ford got a black eye with the 6.0/6.4 Navistar diesels. Emissions regulations hit the class 8 engine mfgs pretty hard too when EGR began in 03-04. CAT eventually left the on highway market altogether. (Rabbit trail - sorry). Anyway, the GM trucks are probably more comfortable on-road, maybe better handling, etc. Which I'm sure is where majority of buyers stay. Dodge/RAM was not a part of the mix, and I've never owned one, so no opinion really one way or the other. Although the HD versions still have a solid frt axle also.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: SOHCman
yikes, is that a wiped cam cap?


Yes, due to lack of sufficient oil reaching the head. The cam rides directly in the aluminum. There is no bearing.

Just to be clear, the fix seems to be a Melling high volume oil pump and improved cam chain tensioners.


Originally Posted By: FermeLaPorte
I don't understand why people keep buying Ford.


Quite simply, I find the Ford trucks comfortable and enjoy driving them. I'm not brand loyal, but I have to spend a lot of time in it, so I have to like it.

In addition, according to www.truedelta.com overall Ford trucks are more reliable than Chevy/GM and Dodge/Ram. But less reliable than Toyota or Nissan.

 

[red7404]

OH WOW. a ford engine with low oil flow to the valves? shades of ,the 60s, old small 6 cyl.

 

[goodtimes]

They must use a coating or special hardened aluminum for the bearings. I wonder if all other cars do this. I never took apart a newer car with OHC. I know lathes a hundred years old are still going strong with a hardened steel spindle and cast iron plain bearings. Not impressed to see aluminum on steel bearings. It doesn't take an engineer to know that's wrong.

 

[CT8]

I spent most of my life working on stuff the brilliant engineers designed and built. How do engineers turn $300,000.00 worth of lowest bid parts into a $35,000.00 piece of junk motor vehicle?

 

[CT8]

When at work calling the factory engineering staff the engineers would call it an E.F.U. [engineering mess up]

 

[CT8]

I did lots of fleet type work and most of the fleet owners[ those people could get squeeze blood from a turnip] said Fords overall held up better. When I looked for a vehicle Ford , Ram.and GM were all really nice and what made me choose the Ford was the engine.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

If you are going to replace the Oil Pump due to wear, you can consider a HV model. However there is little point in a well running engine. Higher oil volume in that case can increase the oil volume to the top end, which may already have adequate oiling. Excess oil there can be a problem rather than a solution. Note that racers use HV pumps to increase the load bearing capacity of the bottom end (main bearings), not the top end. In fact it's also a standard procedure to restrict oil flow to the top end in a racing application.

Although 10 PSI idle and 25 PSI at speed might seem scary to some, that is in fact adequate oil pressure under those load conditions. I've driven tired motors another 100K miles with similar oil pressures. It's just an indication of wider bearing clearances from wear, not an indication that oil is not getting where it needs to be.

Even racers would not be alarmed by such pressures as spinning the engine beyond stock redline also increases pressure at high RPMs, so they still might see 50~75 PSI at redline. You really don't want it to go much higher than that.

Oil Systems are complex. There is no simple right or wrong answers; everything must be considered as a whole, right down to engine configuration such as pushrod, OHV, are piston oilers incorporated, is there adequate drainback from the top end to the sump, how restrictive is your filter (a restrictive one will raise pressure), what does your particular engine family "like", who and how will the motor be driven, and so on. Even the location of the oil pressure sender can affect pressure readings.

At a minimum the OP's question can't be answered without a LOT more information.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Originally Posted By: CT8
I did lots of fleet type work and most of the fleet owners[ those people could get squeeze blood from a turnip] said Fords overall held up better. When I looked for a vehicle Ford , Ram.and GM were all really nice and what made me choose the Ford was the engine.


The kinds of vehicles Fleet owners buy are generally relatively base configurations. Fleet sales arms allow some flexibility with regard to certain utility or performance options that you won't find on a base truck option sheet. Broadly speaking Ford offers the lowest priced truck base configuration of the Big3, and that carries to the Fleet sales arm. I think you would find those are the primary reasons for a preference for Ford vehicles in a fleet operator's budget considerations rather than one specific aspect like engine reliability.

They use them daily (high annual mileage) and dispose of them at a specific mileage wear point, before long term failure rates rise, often with obvious commercial wear so it's not generally sold at high resale anyway, and what happens after that is not their problem. Even tax rules encourage certain buy / replace practices as if you get more at resale than you've written off as a depreciating asset, you can be in a situation where you owe tax. It's not really the same as a consumer buy decision tree.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

We live close enough to Elkhart, IN that when out and about, we see a good bit of traffic from the private carriers transporting 5th wheel and gooseneck trailers around the country. Almost universally (greater than 80% most likely), they all use crew cab F250s or F350s. There are a couple Rams, but nearly zero Chevy/GMC. This mostly matches up with farmers and other agricultural users in our area... those that use the truck for heavy towing prefer Fords, the horse/animal trailers are usually driving Chevy/GMC, and the Rams are really only for the guys who jack them up and like rolling coal while not doing any useful work.

In my personal experience, Fords that have been used for heavy towing still feel solid after many years, and the Chevy/GMC IFS as mentioned above feels very loose and rickety. The Rams all have so many lift kits and mods you can't get a good feel for the truck itself.