Hyundai and Quaker State 5W30 A5

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
In my Hyundai, I run the QSUD 5W-30. No it is not A5/B5. Those oils are too thin at temp. I wanted something thicker[gasp].

All ILSAC 5w-30 options have almost identical HTHS, and note that A5/B5 has an HTHS of below 3.5, with no requirement for the oil to bump right at 3.0 or 2.9. That's ILSAC fuel economy formulating.


From the data I was able to find:

PP 5W-30 is A1/B1, A5/B5 Kv100 = 9.8
Edge EP 5W-30 is A1/B1 Kv100 = 10.6 HTHS - 2.9
QSUD 5W-30 ACEA N/A Kv100 = 11.6
VME 5W-30 ACEA N/A Kv100 = 9.8
VAS 5W30 ACEA N/A Kv100 = 10.2 HTHS = 3.2
Ken GT-1 D1G2 ACEA N/A Kv100 = 11.0 HTHS = 3.2

YMMV

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 has BOQI = 58. (BOQI = 2,000,000/CCS/NOACK for 5W-xx.) It will probably meet or exceed A5/B5, regardless of it's certified for it or not. Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus 5W-30 has BOQI = 54. Therefore, QSUD 5W-30 has a slightly better base oil than PPPP 5W-30, which is certified for A5/B5, reflected in both NOACK and CCS. It's probably not certified for ACEA because it's not a brand sold in Europe...

That's interesting because SOPUS, parent company of Pennzoil and Quaker State, has indicated on numerous ocassions that Quaker State is their "value" oil and Pennzoil is their "premium" oil. Pennzoil uses the GTL Pure Plus process for their basestock, which is not the case for Quaker State.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 has BOQI = 58. (BOQI = 2,000,000/CCS/NOACK for 5W-xx.) It will probably meet or exceed A5/B5, regardless of it's certified for it or not. Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus 5W-30 has BOQI = 54. Therefore, QSUD 5W-30 has a slightly better base oil than PPPP 5W-30, which is certified for A5/B5, reflected in both NOACK and CCS. It's probably not certified for ACEA because it's not a brand sold in Europe...

That's interesting because SOPUS, parent company of Pennzoil and Quaker State, has indicated on numerous ocassions that Quaker State is their "value" oil and Pennzoil is their "premium" oil. Pennzoil uses the GTL Pure Plus process for their basestock, which is not the case for Quaker State.

Actually, they both use GTL, evidenced by the NOACK and CCS since the Shell Pearl GTL's introduction in 2013:

BOQI table of oils tested by PQIA

QSUD did go cheaper on the additive pack though, using the same less potent moly used in PYB as opposed to the more potent moly used in PPPP.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 has BOQI = 58. (BOQI = 2,000,000/CCS/NOACK for 5W-xx.) It will probably meet or exceed A5/B5, regardless of it's certified for it or not. Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus 5W-30 has BOQI = 54. Therefore, QSUD 5W-30 has a slightly better base oil than PPPP 5W-30, which is certified for A5/B5, reflected in both NOACK and CCS. It's probably not certified for ACEA because it's not a brand sold in Europe...

That's interesting because SOPUS, parent company of Pennzoil and Quaker State, has indicated on numerous ocassions that Quaker State is their "value" oil and Pennzoil is their "premium" oil. Pennzoil uses the GTL Pure Plus process for their basestock, which is not the case for Quaker State.

Actually, they both use GTL, evidenced by the NOACK and CCS since the Shell Pearl GTL's introduction in 2013:

BOQI table of oils tested by PQIA

QSUD did go cheaper on the additive pack though, using the same less potent moly used in PYB as opposed to the more potent moly used in PPPP.


SOPUS and Quaker State reps have previously stated that QS does not use GTL basestock. The QS website also makes no mention of GTL whatsoever. Sorry, but your conclusion based on NOACK and CCS numbers is questionable.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 has BOQI = 58. (BOQI = 2,000,000/CCS/NOACK for 5W-xx.) It will probably meet or exceed A5/B5, regardless of it's certified for it or not. Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus 5W-30 has BOQI = 54. Therefore, QSUD 5W-30 has a slightly better base oil than PPPP 5W-30, which is certified for A5/B5, reflected in both NOACK and CCS. It's probably not certified for ACEA because it's not a brand sold in Europe...

That's interesting because SOPUS, parent company of Pennzoil and Quaker State, has indicated on numerous ocassions that Quaker State is their "value" oil and Pennzoil is their "premium" oil. Pennzoil uses the GTL Pure Plus process for their basestock, which is not the case for Quaker State.

Actually, they both use GTL, evidenced by the NOACK and CCS since the Shell Pearl GTL's introduction in 2013:

BOQI table of oils tested by PQIA

QSUD did go cheaper on the additive pack though, using the same less potent moly used in PYB as opposed to the more potent moly used in PPPP.

SOPUS and Quaker State reps have previously stated that QS does not use GTL basestock. The QS website also makes no mention of GTL whatsoever. Sorry, but your conclusion based on NOACK and CCS numbers is questionable.

QSUD is as GTL as it gets. This has already been seen in MSDS's and pointed out on BITOG (see post).

Regarding BOQI -- there is no magic there -- it's impossible for an oil to go over 40 - 50 if it's not GTL or PAO. Group III simply doesn't have such low CCS * NOACK.

 

[CharBaby]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
The whole point to the thread is that there is no Quaker State 5W30 A5 oil one can buy in the USA which is the recommended
oil according to Hyundai.
I do not own a Hyundai, I find it interesting Hyundai recommends something you cant obtain.
I know all about the warranty laws plus Pennzoil and Mobil having a correct product.


Hmmm! I wonder if Hyundai is aware of this?

 

[FutureDoc]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Since it's TGDI, you need SN PLUS and/or dexos1 Gen 2.

Quaker State Ultimate Durability 5W-30 has BOQI = 58. (BOQI = 2,000,000/CCS/NOACK for 5W-xx.) It will probably meet or exceed A5/B5, regardless of it's certified for it or not. Pennzoil Platinum with PurePlus 5W-30 has BOQI = 54. Therefore, QSUD 5W-30 has a slightly better base oil than PPPP 5W-30, which is certified for A5/B5, reflected in both NOACK and CCS. It's probably not certified for ACEA because it's not a brand sold in Europe.

Now, the downsides of QSUD: It has a lower TBN than PPPP. It seems to have the likely-cheap-type of moly as opposed to the probably-trinuclear moly in PPPP. They probably had to lower the detergent content to make up for the ash content of the high dose of the likely-cheap-type moly.

I would probably go with PPPP 5W-30 for the peace of mind. It has all the certifications you need, the recommended viscosity, good TBN, and probably-trinuclear moly. Oil-brand recommendations are usually marketing.


No, you dont "need" it. Note, that ANYTHING that is SN/GF-4 or above is consider acceptable in the US. Whether or not if makes you feel better, that is another story.

Per Hyundai's owners manual

Engine oil *1 *2 (drain and refill)
Recommends
Gamma
1.6 T-GDI 4.76 US qt. (4.5 l)
API SM *3 & ILSAC GF-4 (or above)
ACEA A5/B5 *4
Nu 2.0 GDI 4.23 US qt. (4.0 l)

*3 : If the API service SM engine oil is not available in your country, you are able to use API service SL
*4 If the ACEA A5 engine oil is not available in your country, you are able to use ILSAC GF-3 (or above) or ACEA A3 (or above)

When choosing an oil, consider the range of temperature your vehicle will be
operated in before the next oil change. Proceed to select the recommended
oil viscosity from the chart. Gamma 1.6 T-GDI *1

*1 : For better fuel economy, it is recommended to use the engine oil
of a viscosity grade 5W-30 (ACEA A5 or above). However, if the
engine oil is not available in your country, select the proper
engine oil using the engine oil viscosity chart

ACEA is likely just covering "markets" and reducing cost for printing multiple English manuals. When in doubt/conflict, precedent shows that the lowest common item in the "contract" non-producer of the content... ambiguity is likely in the consumer's favor but don't let me dealership network know...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
From the data I was able to find:

Yes, all are very close. PP probably has an HTHS of 3.0. I believe QSUD is 2.9, but I'm not positive. As I've always said, you can cover just about every ILSAC 5w-30 oil has an HTHS of about 3.0 +/- 0.1. The 3.2 ones are almost outliers.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

What happens when the SOPUS rep comes on here to advise QSUD doesn't use GTL basestocks again?? Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the reps and the fact that I've used QSUD and PP exclusively for the last 6 years and not an outlier random post from a supposedly knowledgeable source in the UK. My take is that someone who says that QSUD is as "GTL as it gets" doesn't use QSUD.

 

[Gokhan]

That Quaker State marketing person who was apparently posting here now seems to be working for Kraft Foods.

Go ahead, ask their technical -- not marketing -- department the GTL question and let's hear if they will give am answer.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

Since you're the one making the claim, I'd submit that the onus is on you to verify that QSUD is as "GTL as it gets". Definitively and unequivocally saying it is ( as you're apparently doing ) and hiding behind a supposed "real answer" equation between the technical and marketing departments probably doesn't get us any closer to the truth.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Go ahead, ask their technical -- not marketing -- department the GTL question and let's hear if they will give am answer.

That's the problem we get. We do know at one time that QSUD was not GTL. That doesn't mean that will hold for all eternity. It may, indeed, have changed.

 

[Vuflanovsky]

The specs for QSUD definitely changed concurrent with the SN Plus version with heavier KV and still no reference to HTHS...what is ostensibly a synthetic "value" oil for SOPUS being as "GTL as it gets" doesn't make sense to me in both market segment/economic terms and actual usage. I'm very familiar with both PP and QSUD in usage and I would say unless they started making QSUD a full GTL oil with SN Plus, it's highly unlikely in my opinion.

The fact that the "proof" is apparently that marketing reps lie on here and if you were able to talk to a petrochemist with Shell they'd let you in on the conspiracy is just wanking in front of a mirror as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Gokhan]

Why are you so serious about this?

GTL and Group III are both legally classified as Group III. Also, there is no guarantee that what's in the Pennzoil Platinum PurePlus is 100% GTL either. It could be 50% GTL, more, or less. It's all marketing. They can legally interchange the base oil without retesting the oil according to the API guidelines, and the Shell MSDS's explicitly state that.

We already know a lot about their base oils from the PQIA tests. Here is what we know:

(1) KV40, KV100, and VI are virtually identical for the two + two = four PP and QSUD formulations before and after the Qatar Pearl GTL plant opening. If you look at only these numbers, they all had/have had/have the same base oil and nothing has changed with GTL.

(2) If you are more knowledgeable, you also look at NOACK, CCS, and NOACK * CCS, the last one being the idea from Chevron Base Oils that it directly relates to the base oil, especially for the same SAE viscosity grades and similar base oils.

Code:


Oil Purchase date NOACK CCS BOQI DNOACK DCCS DBOQI



PP 5W-30 pre-Pearl-opening 1/30/2003 9.3 4,154 52

PP 5W-30 post-Pearl-opening 8/15/2014 9.1 4,080 54 -2.2% -1.8% +4.1%

QSUD 5W-30 pre-Pearl-opening 1/25/2013 8.8 4,487 51

QSUD 5W-30 post-Pearl-opening 12/28/2015 8.7 3,996 58 -1.1% -11% +14%

So, there is not a drastic change in either. However, NOACK, CCS, and BOQI all improved for both with the Pearl opening. There is more improvement for QSUD than for BOQI, and its base-oil quality was also higher before the Pearl opening.

In summary, we have two oils that neither of which are guaranteed to be GTL other than a "PurePlus" label on the bottle of one of them, which doesn't even say how much of the base oil is GTL and how much of it is not. There is then a temporary marketing contractor for QS, who no longer works there and posted a claim here.

If I have to choose based on the base oil, I would choose the Quaker State. Its numbers are certainly better as far as the base oil is concerned.

Sit back, relax, enjoy the data, and learn something. They are both good oils and there is really not much difference in their base oil one way or the other. Besides, it really doesn't matter.

 

[Gokhan]

I just looked at the data sheets and the SN PLUS QSUD 5W-30 is a lot thicker than the SN PLUS PPPP 5W-30. From the A_Harman index calculations, I estimate QSUD SN PLUS 5W-30 HTHSV = 3.3 - 3.5 cP. So, QSUD 5W-30 SN PLUS is almost a 5W-40.

QSUD SN PLUS 5W-30 is definitely a great oil and has a serious viscosity advantage over its PPPP cousin. Chances are that they all share very similar base oils, apart from the viscosity difference. Add packs need to be seen.

 

[Gokhan]

Look what I've found:

Second generation GTL base oils: On-site... yield in Qatar

------------------------------------------------------

Abstract:

Shell was the first oil marketer to commercialize gas-to-liquids (GTL) technology for base oil production, with the commissioning of the multi-purpose GTL facility in Bintulu, Malaysia, in 1993. Bintulu produced detergent feedstocks, a range of Fischer-Tropsch (FT) commercial wax grades and a feedstock, a so-called waxy raffinate (WR), to produce base oil. WR production involves the hydro-isomerization of a FT wax made from a first generation FT wax synthesis catalyst, using a fixed bed reactor, with the wax having a maximum carbon number of ≈ 100. This FT wax is then hydrocracked and hydroisomerized. Shipped to Shell facilities in Japan and France, the WR was solvent de-waxed, becoming the first commercially available GTL base oil in the market. This was a 5 cs grade marketed as Shell XHVI™. In 2009, the first phase of Shell's GTL facility in Qatar will be on stream. It will include substantial base oils facilities, producing a full range of viscosity grades from 2 to > 9 cs. With a total capacity of the first phase of 70,000 bpd, the output of the Qatar plant will be just under five times the capacity of Bintulu. Shell's first generation GTL base oils had exceptionally high VI (> 140), good Noack volatility characteristics, high saturates content (> 99%) and a predominantly iso-paraffin content. The difference between first generation Shell GTL base oils from Bintulu and the second generation is primarily due to new proprietary catalysts, which lead to higher yield of material in the lubricating oil carbon number range and the use of a Shell catalytic de-waxing technology for final de-waxing of the base oils, rather than solvent de-waxing.

------------------------------------------------------

So, Shell XHVI (extra-high-viscosity-index) base oil is GTL. It has been in production since 1993, 20 years before the Shell Qatar Pearl GTL (PurePlus) started production in 2013.

It looks like Shell has used GTL all along, long before the "PurePlus" trademark was introduced in 2014. In fact, we knew how great the old Pennzoil Ultra was -- its NOACK values have never been matched after PurePlus came along. It's not even clear if the Pearl GTL is a better base oil than the XHVI GTL that has been used for a long time. It's also not even clear if PPPP uses a combination of Pearl GTL and XHVI GTL. It's also not clear if other Shell brands use XHVI GTL and/or Pearl GTL, separately or in combinations. API classifies GTL as Group III, which makes GTL legally indistinguishable from the traditional Group III.

The bottom line is that PP and QSUD use very similar base oils -- if not the same.

The main advantage of Pearl Qatar GTL over XHVI GTL could be that "use of a Shell catalytic de-waxing technology for final de-waxing of the base oils, rather than solvent de-waxing," as solvent dewaxing could result in a small amount of solvent remaining in the base oil, decreasing the purity slightly. However, I don't have the full paper at the moment.

 

[Gokhan]

I might actually consider QSUD 5W-30 API SN PLUS for the next OCI. I'm sure the base oil is top-of-the-line GTL (Pearl and/or XHVI) and I really like that HTHSV ~ 3.3 - 3.5 cP, as opposed to PPPP 5W-30 SN PLUS, which is a lot thinner and has HTHSV = 3.0 cP. I want to try a UOA with a thicker oil. I wish PQIA would test it soon.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I might actually consider QSUD 5W-30 API SN PLUS for the next OCI. I'm sure the base oil is top-of-the-line GTL (Pearl and/or XHVI) and I really like that HTHSV ~ 3.3 - 3.5 cP, as opposed to PPPP 5W-30 SN PLUS, which is a lot thinner and has HTHSV = 3.0 cP. I want to try a UOA with a thicker oil. I wish PQIA would test it soon.


http://www.pqiadata.org/QuakerState5W30dexos.html

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I might actually consider QSUD 5W-30 API SN PLUS for the next OCI. I'm sure the base oil is top-of-the-line GTL (Pearl and/or XHVI) and I really like that HTHSV ~ 3.3 - 3.5 cP, as opposed to PPPP 5W-30 SN PLUS, which is a lot thinner and has HTHSV = 3.0 cP. I want to try a UOA with a thicker oil. I wish PQIA would test it soon.

http://www.pqiadata.org/QuakerState5W30dexos.html

Thank you but I'm talking about the new SN PLUS formulation, which is entirely different.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I just looked at the data sheets and the SN PLUS QSUD 5W-30 is a lot thicker than the SN PLUS PPPP 5W-30. From the A_Harman index calculations, I estimate QSUD SN PLUS 5W-30 HTHSV = 3.3 - 3.5 cP.

I wouldn't hold my breath on an ILSAC lube having an HTHS that high.