dirty injectors - necessarily obvious?

[NissanMaxima]

Hi all:
So I know the general consensus is that using a Top Tier gasoline will keep fuel injectors clean. But what if Top Tier gasoline wasn't always used in the car, or, like in my case, that car was not driven a lot in its early years of ownership and probably had some old gas run through it when it was rarely driven during winter snow months. I know from the AAA report on Top Tier gas that using a Top Tier gas even on an engine that was "dirtied" by using sub-standard gas apparently cleans up injectors, but do we know to what extent? What I'm getting at, is how does one really know the current status of injector performance? Isn't it reasonable that there is a continuum of dirt or fouling from say perfect and new all the way to clogged, and in between symptoms may not be necessarily obvious but yet detrimental (for example less than original acceleration and the like that has became so slight and gradual since the car was new it may not be noticeable)?

After my 95 Maxima experienced its first fuel injector failure and I had it replaced, I got to wondering about this topic. The car was indeed misbehaving in terms of rough idle and acceleration and there was certainly a big improvement when the injector was replaced but again, this was for a fully failed injector. So how do I really know the condition of the rest of the injectors? I believe the mechanic checked resistance but how sensitive is that to the condition of the injector or is it like "OK" vs. full fail?

With all this in mind, I wrote to a few fuel injector cleaning outfits. I believe Trav on this board also does this for a business in Europe if I'm not mistaken so hope he chimes in. The general response was they are not fond of injector cleaners. Some even said that if there are deposits after the filter, they may actually end up in the injector and make things worse. One response said there is a small filter in the injector as a last chance catch that you don't want to get clogged by dislodged debris working its way down there as a result of the cleaner.

I had been tempted to use some fuel system cleaner but now am not so sure.

Looking forward to responses to this topic.

 

[demarpaint]

PM Trav if he doesn't reply. He does the work here in the US, top shelf work. He'll set you straight.

 

[Artem]

This is why preventive maintenance is key. A small dose of fuel system cleaner every now and then will keep those injectors happy.

Why neglect a vehicle only to then have to start stuffing snake oil into it in hopes of fixing an issue with magic in a bottle.

Run small doses of a good PEA cleaner along with some top tier fuel and give er the ol' Italian Tune-up while getting on the highway to push / burn that carbon up. I've only had vehicles run better after a bottle of Redline S-1 fuel cleaner. Never had a customer come back and tell me an injector clogged up and the car runs worse.

 

[Oil_Flunky]

The best fuel system and injector cleaner I've found is Kano Kreen at one ounce per gallon.

 

[Leo99]

I put a little fuel treatment in my Rav4 every few months else my wife will complain it's hesitant to start in the morning.

 

[clinebarger]

There is more than one mode of Injector failure, Coil failure (Either "open" or "shorted") is two of them.

Nissan's are one of the worst for "open" injector coil failures especially throughout the 80's & 90's, GM had problems with their Multec injectors becoming "shorted".....Sometimes intermittently, Bringing the entire "quad driver" down & the engine would stall.

These modes of failure cannot be prevented with fuel system cleaners. In the case of Multec 1 injectors......Some injector cleaners can accelerate coil winding insulation erosion.

I would really like to hear Trav's input!

 

[andyd]

The reliability of the Bosch Motronic EFI in the '88 was way better than any carb I ever had. Messing with expensive black boxes never happened. The system on the Rat is essentially the same The injectors will inter change with Ford 5.0 injectors of the same era. That means the seals and pintles are replaceable These are wear items, the plastic gets brittle and such. Do you smell gas under the hood? Do you see a cloud of dark smoke when you start the engine? If the answer to both those questions is no ,the the injectors aren't leaking. Maybe running some elixir high in PEA for a tank or or 2 may un clog something. You are gambling that a 7$ can of cleaner is gonna clean some junk out of 23yr old injectors. If you get any improvement then it worked.If not there is plenty of stuff that will make a 23 yr old car idle rough.

 

[Trav]

Top tier fuel goes a long way in keeping injectors clean but not in every circumstance. Old steel body, DI injectors, marine injectors, engines that sit a long time not being used, etc can and do suffer from the ill effects of ethanol laced fuels.
DI injectors are a subject of their own.

Keeping the injectors clean is easier than clean them once they have been fouled. The issue that is not addressed with any in the tank or through the fuel rail solution is the small filters in the injectors themselves get partially plugged or in the case of DI get burned to a cinder and the particles get down into the injector.

Cars with metal fuel tanks tend to have more rust particulate matter in the injectors and cars with plastic tanks tend to varnish more.
Running Techron, SI-1 or Berrymans Chemtool once in a while can benefit the injectors but choosing the correct product for the injectors you have is as important as the product being use to get the most effectiveness out of it.

If the injectors a modern multi hole disc injectors Techron does a good job, older pintel styles benefit the most from SI-1 in small doses run in every tank, it lubes and protects the internals from corrosion.
Chemtool benefits all that may be varnished. It doesn't hurt to run a can in the tank once in a while. If you notice no difference and the engine runs like it always did it doesn't mean the product didn't work, it simply means the injectors are clean enough to run properly.

For OPE engines a splash (I don't measure it) in the tank every third or forth tank will keep the carb like new and can eveen restore the carbs performance if the passages are varnished.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Top tier fuel goes a long way in keeping injectors clean but not in every circumstance.


I just don't know about all of this "Top Tier" fuel business. Personally, I think it's all a bunch of bull. How would you know for sure and for certain one way or the other what's coming out of the pump? What made me question all of this was back in the Summer of 2003 here in Phoenix. We had a gasoline pipeline break out in the desert between Phoenix and Tucson, that supplies a full one third of the gasoline to the greater Phoenix Metro Area.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/25/us/gas-shortage-eases-in-phoenix-as-pipeline-resumes-pumping.html

"The trouble started when corrosion caused the east line, which normally supplies about a third of the Phoenix area's gas, to rupture on July 30."

Within hours gas stations started running out of fuel. Within 2 days over 1/2 of the cities gas stations were dry. "Top Tier", bargain basement, and everything else up and down the line. No one really knew what had happened until the next day when the TV and newspapers started running stories.

So..... If you have one third of all the gas stations, (it sure seemed more than that based on all the empty gas stations that I saw), getting their gasoline out of one pipeline, and the gas from that single pipeline supplies most every brand being sold in the city, the whole "Top Tier" deal is B.S. A lot like bottled water coming out of a city tap, and marked up 1,000%.

Yeah, I've heard it's "added" and "blended" when the tanker fills up. But where? And by who? And how? I've never seen any evidence of that happening. I talked to a couple of tanker drivers about it, and they just laughed. All but confirming it's B.S. So if, "Chevron With Techron", is coming out of the same pipe as Love's, Circle K, ARCO, Shell, and Phillip's, who is this mystery man who adds the Techron?.... Or do they all have it?

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Your gasoline product is extremely location dependent.

Check the refineries in your area and the distance to your town / city / etc. All the fuel delivered to everyone will come from one of those refineries. Sometimes there is only one within reasonable tanker truck delivery distance.

Top Tier fuel uses an additive. It has to be added to the fuel at some point between the refinery and the vendor's storage tank. If the tanker is only going to one vendor's locations, he probably doesn't have anything to do with adding it at the point of delivery, but in some areas the tanker will fill more than one storage tank at more than one vendor, and in thee case where one is Top Tier and one is a discount station, he would add it when unloading if that vendor paid for it.

A very small amount of active ingredient is involved. Most aftermarket fuel additives that contain the typical Top Tier chemicals will be diluted significantly with petroleum products of some kind. A bottle of fuel conditioner at retail is not much different in size than the additive used in a tankerful. $10 vs $Hundreds.

It will not be in pipelines; that is untreated gasoline.

Retail gas stations don't differ significantly in their raw fuel markup or profit per gallon. So it's pretty easy to figure out that the additive costs a penny or three per gallon. Businesses can't hid this kind of information (same with sale prices ... they tell you the markup on regular priced merchandise in that product category).

 

[ecotourist]

Originally Posted By: Trav
….the correct product for the injectors you have is as important as the product being use to get the most effectiveness out of it.


@Trav - which type of injectors do I have in my 2000 BMW 528i? (I assume it's the same as US spec.)

Mine has developed a rare and isolated "miss" (a little instantaneous jerk at a steady speed). I've only ever used top tier premium fuel in it but as the car sometimes sits for weeks in bad weather, it wouldn't hurt to run some injector cleaner through it.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

As has been discussed on here before, gas tankers typically have more than one compartment and can carry a variety of products at once.
The same arguments above disputing the reality of top tier gas could also be used to argue that octane distinctions in gas are imaginary and even that gasoline and diesel are the same thing.
As has also been discussed here, pipeline usage can be very sophisticated with a variety of products in the line at one time.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
As has been discussed on here before, gas tankers typically have more than one compartment and can carry a variety of products at once.
The same arguments above disputing the reality of top tier gas could also be used to argue that octane distinctions in gas are imaginary and even that gasoline and diesel are the same thing.
As has also been discussed here, pipeline usage can be very sophisticated with a variety of products in the line at one time.


They have different tanks for different octane rated fuels. You can see that when they are unloading. Many are dumping from 3 hoses into 3 different tanks that have 3 different octane ratings. All at the same time.

But I've seen nameless tankers pulling into brand name stations. Not every Chevron station gets it's tanks filled from a Chevron labeled tanker with "Techron" plastered all over the sides of it. Same with Shell, Mobil, Union, and all the rest. And as I said, if this stuff is supposedly, "custom blended" somewhere somehow, it's the biggest and best kept secret in the oil refining business as to where and how. Not to mention with what. Simply because nobody knows anything for certain. Or with any detail. Everyone speaks in general terms.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But with all that goes on in this world in regards to fraud, it wouldn't surprise me if there was plenty of it going on in the gasoline trade. There is certainly enough opportunity for it to happen. No one even thinks about it. You select and go to the station of your choice, stick in the nozzle, and start pumping. From that point on you are at their total mercy as to what flows into your tank. You can't prove or disprove one way or the other what you are getting.

Not to mention the condition of the underground tanks is far more important in regards to the quality of fuel you are pumping, than any "super engine cleaning additive" some brand claims to have that, "scrubs your engine clean as you drive". Or other some such nonsense.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
The same arguments above disputing the reality of top tier gas could also be used to argue that octane distinctions in gas are imaginary and even that gasoline and diesel are the same thing.


A gasoline engine won't run on diesel. It's not "imaginary", but as far as octane, it's the same deal. You are at the stations total mercy. Especially with todays newer cars. My HEMI Jeep will run on 87 octane. But the manual say's the engine will deliver it's "best performance" with a higher octane. Either 89 or 91.

So I run 91 because I paid for a good performing V-8. And I want the best performance I can get out of it. But if the station I filled up at was screwing me, by selling me a tankful of 87 octane for the price of 91 octane, I would have no way of knowing it. The newer engines will sense it, and immediately detune the timing in microseconds through the computer. Preventing it from knocking. You as the driver really have no way of knowing. And even less of a way to prove it. Except to have it analyzed. Which no one does. So you trust them.

Even as to amount, how often are pumps inspected for accurate flow? I don't know. They all have some type of sticker on them saying they will deliver accurate flow. But I can tell you I've never seen one being checked when I was getting gas. And I've been buying gasoline for the last 50 years.

It's not like buying a pound of 75% lean ground beef as opposed to 96% lean. You can clearly see the difference. But with gasoline you don't even see it. Can anyone tell me the difference in a glassful of 87 vs. 91 octane fuel by looking at it? If you think about it, there is nothing you can buy other than prescription drugs, where you are at the total mercy of the seller, as to the quality of what you're getting. And prescription drugs are highly regulated by the FDA. And you are carefully monitored by your doctor who is prescribing them for you with regular visits. With gasoline, you tell me?

And more often then not in life, if you give someone an opportunity to take advantage, they will at some point. Perhaps I'm being a bit too distrustful. But the older I get, the less honesty I see in that regard. Especially in business.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: ecotourist
Originally Posted By: Trav
….the correct product for the injectors you have is as important as the product being use to get the most effectiveness out of it.


@Trav - which type of injectors do I have in my 2000 BMW 528i? (I assume it's the same as US spec.)

Mine has developed a rare and isolated "miss" (a little instantaneous jerk at a steady speed). I've only ever used top tier premium fuel in it but as the car sometimes sits for weeks in bad weather, it wouldn't hurt to run some injector cleaner through it.


These are a metal pintel style injector with a modified metal pintel cap. These need perpetual care to stay in good condition and do not like sitting around, they are extremely susceptible to ethanol corrosion.

Redline SI-1 is what you want to use in these, use a full bottle to a full tank to start with, next tank a bottle of Berrymans Chemtool then 3 oz per every full tank of SI-1 thereafter. You will probably see an improvement, if not get them cleaned then maintain them or replace them with a modern 4 hole disc style EV1 unit. PM if I can help.

This is what SI-1 does for the pintel needles (last picture), it works as advertised, I have had quite a few apart that have had a steady diet long term.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/tech/S1-1 Tech Info.pdf

 

[AVB]

The state takes that stuff pretty serious here. I don't know how well it is enforced, but there are some large fines to discourage cheating.

 

[jhellwig]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
As has been discussed on here before, gas tankers typically have more than one compartment and can carry a variety of products at once.
The same arguments above disputing the reality of top tier gas could also be used to argue that octane distinctions in gas are imaginary and even that gasoline and diesel are the same thing.
As has also been discussed here, pipeline usage can be very sophisticated with a variety of products in the line at one time.


They have different tanks for different octane rated fuels. You can see that when they are unloading. Many are dumping from 3 hoses into 3 different tanks that have 3 different octane ratings. All at the same time.

But I've seen nameless tankers pulling into brand name stations. Not every Chevron station gets it's tanks filled from a Chevron labeled tanker with "Techron" plastered all over the sides of it. Same with Shell, Mobil, Union, and all the rest. And as I said, if this stuff is supposedly, "custom blended" somewhere somehow, it's the biggest and best kept secret in the oil refining business as to where and how. Not to mention with what. Simply because nobody knows anything for certain. Or with any detail. Everyone speaks in general terms.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. But with all that goes on in this world in regards to fraud, it wouldn't surprise me if there was plenty of it going on in the gasoline trade. There is certainly enough opportunity for it to happen. No one even thinks about it. You select and go to the station of your choice, stick in the nozzle, and start pumping. From that point on you are at their total mercy as to what flows into your tank. You can't prove or disprove one way or the other what you are getting.

Not to mention the condition of the underground tanks is far more important in regards to the quality of fuel you are pumping, than any "super engine cleaning additive" some brand claims to have that, "scrubs your engine clean as you drive". Or other some such nonsense.


The addative is added as it loaded on the truck. The addatives and amounts differ between brands but are regulated and inspected on a regular basis. The name on the truck means nothing as there are numerous private carriers that are contracted to haul fuel for the name brand stations all the time.

As far as the truck driver not knowing what is going on that isn’t surprising. There are several truck divers out there that are nothing more than a warm brainless body in a seat.

The whole thing is not a secret and is highly regulated and spot checked constantly.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: AVB
The state takes that stuff pretty serious here. I don't know how well it is enforced, but there are some large fines to discourage cheating.


I have seen the state taking samples and the city weights and measurements dept checking amounts from gas stations a few times, according to the station owner its regular and random.
I would say they take it seriously.

 

[hatt]

There's no way they'd get away with selling 87 as 93 for long. Plenty of people have vehicles that you'd know instantly if you had the wrong octane. Then the lawsuits. I'm going with it only happens by accident. Most people don't spend $.60 more a gallon for the heck of it.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: ecotourist
Originally Posted By: Trav
….the correct product for the injectors you have is as important as the product being use to get the most effectiveness out of it.


@Trav - which type of injectors do I have in my 2000 BMW 528i? (I assume it's the same as US spec.)

Mine has developed a rare and isolated "miss" (a little instantaneous jerk at a steady speed). I've only ever used top tier premium fuel in it but as the car sometimes sits for weeks in bad weather, it wouldn't hurt to run some injector cleaner through it.


Edit to my answer to you. These are your exact injectors. The first picture is when I got them with half of them stripped and blasted the second is all done.