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LM-100J (C-130) Airshow #4817573 07/18/18 06:47 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 9,511
tom slick Offline OP
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Havenít seen it loop until now!



You get what you pay for...
So keep in mind how much you paid for this advice.
Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4817639 07/18/18 07:59 PM
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andyd Offline
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Why would you wanna loop a huge cargo plane? Majorly impressed with short take off


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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4817731 07/18/18 10:26 PM
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BrocLuno Offline
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Cause you can laugh


Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4817769 07/19/18 12:50 AM
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Astro14 Offline
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Actually, the short landing was very impressive, too.


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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4817770 07/19/18 12:54 AM
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Shannow Offline
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Nice

Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4817802 07/19/18 04:07 AM
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dlundblad Offline
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Don't these have to be a bit light on their feet for aircraft carriers?


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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: dlundblad] #4817961 07/19/18 08:11 AM
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Astro14 Offline
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Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Don't these have to be a bit light on their feet for aircraft carriers?


Are you teasing me with this post?

I was expecting an emoji... that would help me understand.

The C-130 on the carrier was a stunt, a proof of concept, done only once to see if it could be done.

It can. But it has no military utility. Take 40+ warplanes out of an operating area in order to get an empty cargo plane into the operating area (and the demo was done with an empty Herc). It's a very risky operation, much more so than normal fixed wing ops because of the Herc's size, and lack of arresting gear.

A risky operation that takes warplanes out, and adds...a cargo plane with no cargo?

This C-130 on a carrier isn't the Doolittle raid...it's a stunt...

That said, you guys should know I love the Herc. Incredible short field performance (takeoff and landing). Good capacity. Reliable. Durable. Versatile.

Flew in one up to Baghdad a few years ago, in fact.

And this was a cool video (though I don't think it's a true loop, hard to judge from the camera angle, but it didn't get to 90 nose up or nose down, more like a barrel roll, which keeps the the G down to the airplane's limits.).

But let's be honest - it's still a cargo plane, and a slow one at that, optimized for intra-theater* operations.

*Cargo guys talk about inter-theater (long range, into and out of the theater) and intra-theater.

Inter-theater takes big lift at high speed for the long range transit. You need big lift numbers for the long range ops, or you just don't move enough stuff to make air transport worthwhile. The C-5 is an excellent example of that. Big, fast, long-range carries a lot.

Intra-theater takes moderate lift, with lots of unimproved runways, to have flexibility to get troops, gear, and supplies just where the need to be. You must make use of lousy facilities. High-frequency, short-range ops. Slow speed isn't as big a deal in that scenario, but short runway ops are a big deal.

The A-400M and the C-17* tried to be both: inter and intra. But they ended up not doing as well as the Herc intra and they can't carry the weight the C-5 can (though in-flight refueling changes that). The USAF is operating, and upgraded, a set of 40+ year old heavy lifters in the C-5B and C-5M to keep the capacity inter-theater. The 747 cargo is a great inter-theater platform, and there was a lot of contracted commercial heavy lift used in our recent conflicts.

*The C-17 was built, as was the C-5, with landing gear designed to operate on soft/unimproved surfaces. The C-17 in particular, has good short-field performance, but you're not going to put your $300 million+ cargo plane in a place where it can get shot at...so, while the capability is there, the mission is flown by the Herc...

Last edited by Astro14; 07/19/18 08:38 AM.

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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4818031 07/19/18 10:09 AM
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Johnny2Bad Offline
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Cargo-capable aircraft, by their very nature, are "sports cars" when empty. All that hauling horesepower goes to just flying. If the aircraft was not meant to haul a load, no aircraft manufacturer would put those engines on it.

But you can have a lot of fun on an unloaded cargo plane, especially if combined with a light fuel load. Just keep the loads under the area where the wings break up.

Helicopters, which are incapable of inverted flight, can also do rolls under some circumstances.

Anything even remotely close to that kind of flying heavy will crash the airplane.

I had a good friend die because when flying a DC-3 cargo in winter, they made a go-around as visibility was poor, and due to just the unusual flight load during the go-around the cargo shifted, changed the COG, ( some cargo moved to the tail) and it fell into an uncontrollable dive. Killed both pilots.

As usual, pilot error is the fault, as the pilots are ultimately responsible for securing the load. Of course on heavy lift military there's a loadmaster, but that's just how they roll.

You learn a great deal about loading when you are around aircraft. Some of it is applicable to road vehicles.

Q: How many pounds overweight before the airplane could take off but then crash?

A: One.

Aircraft are overloaded all the time, especially in remote areas. Pilots know their aircraft and what it can take.

Nobody from the usual licensing and regulatory bodies are around when they land back at base to check for the required extra fuel ... they prefer nice airports and nice hotels ... except on the odd foray, and the radio chatter warns everybody for hundreds of miles in any case if they are going around (in Canada, civil aviation, Cessena's and the like, it's illegal to land with less than 45 minutes fuel onboard), so they can also adjust by flying fuel light.

If they didn't there would be a lot more aviation accidents. But a limit, whether learned or read from the operations manual, is a limit. Full stop.


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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4818060 07/19/18 10:41 AM
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Johnny2Bad Offline
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I've seen pilots hide in outhouses when "regular" facilities were available, for hours, doing log books while MOT was local, checking for violations.


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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4818294 07/19/18 04:55 PM
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BusyLittleShop Offline
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Impressive but technically speaking not a true loop... not even a Barn
Stormers loop... however if Tex Johnson were still alive he would have
not only looped the L100 but also spun and barrel rolled the whole
mess... Tex Johnson and Bob Hoover were what we call a pilots pilot
because they were highly skilled at managing an aircraft energy
without going negative G... they were both the most sought after
engineering and development test pilots in our history not to mention
they bolt died of natural causes...

Tex demonstrates in a Ford Trimotor the best America had in 1929...


In another demonstration of his performance capabilities, Tex
performed two barrel rolls at the hydroplane Gold Cup race. The
maneuver not only impressed perspective buyers, but also startled an
unexpecting Boeing president, Bill Allen.







Last edited by BusyLittleShop; 07/19/18 05:00 PM.

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Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: Johnny2Bad] #4818481 07/20/18 04:45 AM
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billt460 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnny2Bad
I had a good friend die because when flying a DC-3 cargo in winter, they made a go-around as visibility was poor, and due to just the unusual flight load during the go-around the cargo shifted, changed the COG, ( some cargo moved to the tail) and it fell into an uncontrollable dive. Killed both pilots.


Same thing caused this.


Re: LM-100J (C-130) Airshow [Re: tom slick] #4818649 07/20/18 09:24 AM
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dlundblad Offline
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Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Don't these have to be a bit light on their feet for aircraft carriers?


Are you teasing me with this post?

I was expecting an emoji... that would help me understand.

The C-130 on the carrier was a stunt, a proof of concept, done only once to see if it could be done.

It can. But it has no military utility. Take 40+ warplanes out of an operating area in order to get an empty cargo plane into the operating area (and the demo was done with an empty Herc). It's a very risky operation, much more so than normal fixed wing ops because of the Herc's size, and lack of arresting gear.

A risky operation that takes warplanes out, and adds...a cargo plane with no cargo?

This C-130 on a carrier isn't the Doolittle raid...it's a stunt...

That said, you guys should know I love the Herc. Incredible short field performance (takeoff and landing). Good capacity. Reliable. Durable. Versatile.

Flew in one up to Baghdad a few years ago, in fact.

And this was a cool video (though I don't think it's a true loop, hard to judge from the camera angle, but it didn't get to 90 nose up or nose down, more like a barrel roll, which keeps the the G down to the airplane's limits.).

But let's be honest - it's still a cargo plane, and a slow one at that, optimized for intra-theater* operations.

*Cargo guys talk about inter-theater (long range, into and out of the theater) and intra-theater.

Inter-theater takes big lift at high speed for the long range transit. You need big lift numbers for the long range ops, or you just don't move enough stuff to make air transport worthwhile. The C-5 is an excellent example of that. Big, fast, long-range carries a lot.

Intra-theater takes moderate lift, with lots of unimproved runways, to have flexibility to get troops, gear, and supplies just where the need to be. You must make use of lousy facilities. High-frequency, short-range ops. Slow speed isn't as big a deal in that scenario, but short runway ops are a big deal.

The A-400M and the C-17* tried to be both: inter and intra. But they ended up not doing as well as the Herc intra and they can't carry the weight the C-5 can (though in-flight refueling changes that). The USAF is operating, and upgraded, a set of 40+ year old heavy lifters in the C-5B and C-5M to keep the capacity inter-theater. The 747 cargo is a great inter-theater platform, and there was a lot of contracted commercial heavy lift used in our recent conflicts.

*The C-17 was built, as was the C-5, with landing gear designed to operate on soft/unimproved surfaces. The C-17 in particular, has good short-field performance, but you're not going to put your $300 million+ cargo plane in a place where it can get shot at...so, while the capability is there, the mission is flown by the Herc...


I genuinely thought they did hence why I wasn't surprised by how fast they were.

Thanks for the enlightening response.


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