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#4812694 - 07/12/18 08:52 PM Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick!
Gokhan Online   content


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 3116
Loc: Los Angeles, California
If you spent some time on BITOG, you must have got the idea that there is no such thing as the best oil or whether thin is always better than thick or vice versa. For example, we know that thicker oil usually tends to provide better wear protection.

One question I always wondered about was the relative base-oil quality of the thinner and thicker base stocks within the same base-stock family. In other words, is a thinner Shell Pearl GTL base stock of higher or lower quality than a thicker Shell Pearl GTL base stock?

My base-oil-quality index (BOQI ~ 1/CCS/NOACK), which has turned out to be extremely robust and useful, has long predicted that thinner base stocks are superior to thicker base stocks in base-oil quality. 0W-20 scores higher than 5W-30, which in turn scores higher than 10W-30, which in turn scores higher than 15W-40 in BOQI. Base-oil quality (BOQI) primarily relates to an oil's oxidation stability, which determines the OCI length and engine cleaning.

However, without actual data, we wouldn't know if this is an artifact of BOQI or thinner base oils indeed have higher base-oil quality (less oxidation). I've finally found a scientific study, which clearly demonstrated that thinner base oils indeed have more oxidation stability and leave less deposits and allow longer OCI's than thicker base oils.



Effects of hydroprocessing on structure and properties of base oils using NMR (PDF link)

In stark contrast to almost everyone's intuition on BITOG, within the same base-stock family, lower the NOACK (less the evaporation) is, the more the deposits the oil leaves on the engine and less the OCI length are! So, low NOACK by itself can be a bad thing!

If you are concerned about the base-oil quality, low NOACK by itself is not the answer and it can ironically work both for the base-oil quality and against base-oil quality. If you consider the NOACK and CCS together as in the BOQI, then you will get a more definite answer.

As an example, Pennzoil Platinum 0W-20 (higher NOACK) would result in better engine cleaning and allow a longer OCI than Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 (lower NOACK) because they are made from the same base-stock family (Shell Pearl GTL) but the the 0W-20 has a thinner base oil, which results in less oxidation and deposits.
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

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#4812700 - 07/12/18 08:56 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
Dyusik Offline


Registered: 09/26/14
Posts: 2015
Loc: US-WA
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.
_________________________
95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30,XG8
07 IS250 97K FB ?w??,FULL
04 YZF-R1 19K DELO 15w40,XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 18K VR1 20w50,1515
14 RX450h 30k PP 0w20,NAPAG

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#4812716 - 07/12/18 09:07 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Dyusik]
tig1 Offline


Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 13726
Loc: Illinois
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.


I have used 0-20 oils for years now in my last three engines, and I never get deposits any place for any reason.
_________________________
2007 Ford Fusion 228,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 52K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters


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#4812734 - 07/12/18 09:27 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: tig1]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 11245
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.


I have used 0-20 oils for years now in my last three engines, and I never get deposits any place for any reason.
M1 is a very "clean " oil. Also you do reasonable oil change intervals.
_________________________
"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."
Geoff Metcalf

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#4812773 - 07/12/18 10:27 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
edhackett Online   content


Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1938
Loc: Sequim, WA
If that's the case, why is it that Japanese manufactures lobbied the API to have 0W-20 exempt from passing the TEOST test? Is it a coincidence that a majority of manufactures from Japan that specify 0W-20 oils are involved in class action lawsuits for oil burning due primarily to ring deposits?

Ed
_________________________
Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.

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#4812808 - 07/12/18 11:27 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
FermeLaPorte Offline


Registered: 07/25/17
Posts: 515
Loc: Texas (south)
I will stick to what my manufacturer says but 5k OCI's are a must
_________________________
Always Mobil 1
2014 1.6L Nissan Versa Sedan, 5 spd, 5k OCI.
2011 3.5L Chevrolet Impala, Automatic, 5k OCI.

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#4812809 - 07/12/18 11:30 PM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
nap Online   content


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 456
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

One question I always wondered about was the relative base-oil quality of the thinner and thicker base stocks within the same base-stock family. In other words, is a thinner Shell Pearl GTL base stock of higher or lower quality than a thicker Shell Pearl GTL base stock?
.


You’ll first need to define “quality”. While busy with that, you may notice that it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. A thin base may be great in formulating a 0W20 but quite lousy if your purpose is a 20W50. And the other way round.

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#4812828 - 07/13/18 12:54 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 40206
Loc: 'Stralia
I encourage anyone to read the article, and understand what that table means.

PN - Paraffinic Neutral besestock (9.9Cst) - 96VI
HPN - as above, but hydrogenated (9.7Cst) - 99VI
NN - Napthenic Neutral (5.05Cst or thereabouts) - 89VI
Next three (HA1-3) are successively hydrogenated aromoatics from cracker stocks)
HA1 - 5.9 Cst - 3VI
HA2 - HA1 hydrogenated 5.1 Cst - 6VI
HA3 - HA2 hydrogenated 4.2 - 20VI
PAO - Polyalphaolefin 5.5Cst - 155VI



The testing is about the hydrogenation of basestocks. ONE of the parameters is deposits LEFT in a thin film test.

The conclusions that Gokhan is drawing regarding
* this paper giving any indication of CLEANING ability (the article mentions lack of solubility with some of the basestocks...incompatible with "cleaning".
* this paper giving indication that thinner basestocks "clean" better than thicker

Is specious...then to draw it into the already flawed BOQI is ridiculous.

Especially when the cleanest with regard to leaving deposits were those with the highest NOACKS, and would therefore have the worst BOQIs.

WOW...

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#4812829 - 07/13/18 12:56 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
FordCapriDriver Offline


Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 2454
Loc: Balearic Islands , Spain
Oil selection cannot be done looking at one single aspect, if what you're saying is that thinner oils because of their usually higher quality base stocks have better oxidation characteristics that may be correct, but if i went right now and poured ta full syn 0W-20 with great oxidation characteristics in either of my two cars i'm sure they'd be clean as heck but they'd rattle themselves to death laugh and the main bearings would not be happy.
_________________________
1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50.
1988 Ford Escort MkIV 1.6 Xr3i Cabrio, - Comma X-Flow XS 10W-40.
1999 Peugeot 106 II 1.1 Max, On standby

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#4812830 - 07/13/18 12:58 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 40206
Loc: 'Stralia
I don't think the three basestocks with VIs of 20 and below would be considered even "reasonable", let alone superior

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#4812832 - 07/13/18 01:06 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
FordCapriDriver Offline


Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 2454
Loc: Balearic Islands , Spain
Let me take a seat, looks like this is going to be an interesting thread popcorn2
_________________________
1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50.
1988 Ford Escort MkIV 1.6 Xr3i Cabrio, - Comma X-Flow XS 10W-40.
1999 Peugeot 106 II 1.1 Max, On standby

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#4812840 - 07/13/18 01:52 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
Y_K Offline


Registered: 05/29/09
Posts: 2183
Loc: WA (USA)
Gokhan Strikes Agaain, GSA.

And a new verb: to gokhan.

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#4812853 - 07/13/18 02:28 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: edhackett]
Gokhan Online   content


Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 3116
Loc: Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: edhackett
If that's the case, why is it that Japanese manufactures lobbied the API to have 0W-20 exempt from passing the TEOST test? Is it a coincidence that a majority of manufactures from Japan that specify 0W-20 oils are involved in class action lawsuits for oil burning due primarily to ring deposits?

Ed

The reason for the TEOST exemption was that they wanted to load their 0W-20's with moly, which leads to deposits. It has nothing to do with the base oil or viscosity.

Japanese engines are the most reliable out there, period. Are you talking about the 2AZ-FE engine, which is only one exception, which actually recommended 5W-30?
_________________________
1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN synthetic
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket

Top
#4812854 - 07/13/18 02:32 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan]
4WD Online   confused


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6574
Loc: Texas
PP is going to use GTL regardless … huge investment to recover … M1 EP in 0w20 has twice the PAO compared to M1 AFE 0w20 … AFE not recommended to 15k (but some have done that) …

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#4812855 - 07/13/18 02:36 AM Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Y_K]
FordCapriDriver Offline


Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 2454
Loc: Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Gokhan Strikes Agaain, GSA.

And a new verb: to gokhan.

LOL
_________________________
1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50.
1988 Ford Escort MkIV 1.6 Xr3i Cabrio, - Comma X-Flow XS 10W-40.
1999 Peugeot 106 II 1.1 Max, On standby

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