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Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! #4812694
07/12/18 08:52 PM
07/12/18 08:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
If you spent some time on BITOG, you must have got the idea that there is no such thing as the best oil or whether thin is always better than thick or vice versa. For example, we know that thicker oil usually tends to provide better wear protection.

One question I always wondered about was the relative base-oil quality of the thinner and thicker base stocks within the same base-stock family. In other words, is a thinner Shell Pearl GTL base stock of higher or lower quality than a thicker Shell Pearl GTL base stock?

My base-oil-quality index (BOQI ~ 1/CCS/NOACK), which has turned out to be extremely robust and useful, has long predicted that thinner base stocks are superior to thicker base stocks in base-oil quality. 0W-20 scores higher than 5W-30, which in turn scores higher than 10W-30, which in turn scores higher than 15W-40 in BOQI. Base-oil quality (BOQI) primarily relates to an oil's oxidation stability, which determines the OCI length and engine cleaning.

However, without actual data, we wouldn't know if this is an artifact of BOQI or thinner base oils indeed have higher base-oil quality (less oxidation). I've finally found a scientific study, which clearly demonstrated that thinner base oils indeed have more oxidation stability and leave less deposits and allow longer OCI's than thicker base oils.



Effects of hydroprocessing on structure and properties of base oils using NMR (PDF link)

In stark contrast to almost everyone's intuition on BITOG, within the same base-stock family, lower the NOACK (less the evaporation) is, the more the deposits the oil leaves on the engine and less the OCI length are! So, low NOACK by itself can be a bad thing!

If you are concerned about the base-oil quality, low NOACK by itself is not the answer and it can ironically work both for the base-oil quality and against base-oil quality. If you consider the NOACK and CCS together as in the BOQI, then you will get a more definite answer.

As an example, Pennzoil Platinum 0W-20 (higher NOACK) would result in better engine cleaning and allow a longer OCI than Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 (lower NOACK) because they are made from the same base-stock family (Shell Pearl GTL) but the the 0W-20 has a thinner base oil, which results in less oxidation and deposits.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812700
07/12/18 08:56 PM
07/12/18 08:56 PM
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,086
US-WA
Dyusik Offline
Dyusik  Offline
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,086
US-WA
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.


95 Cherokee 190K DELO 10W30,XG8
07 IS250 98K Napa 10w30,FULL
04 YZF-R1 19K DELO 15w40,XG7317
99 HD XL1200S 18K VR1 20w50,1515
14 RX450h 32k PP MIX,NAPAG
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Dyusik] #4812716
07/12/18 09:07 PM
07/12/18 09:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,834
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 13,834
Illinois
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.


I have used 0-20 oils for years now in my last three engines, and I never get deposits any place for any reason.


2007 Ford Fusion 232,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 55K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and MC LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: tig1] #4812734
07/12/18 09:27 PM
07/12/18 09:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,827
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,827
Idaho
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Dyusik
I'll take deposits where they accumulate in an accessible to oil area rather than in places where it accumulates by evaporation and clogs things up that won't be washed off by new oil fill.
See? there is a counter to every proposition.
Now, convince me.


I have used 0-20 oils for years now in my last three engines, and I never get deposits any place for any reason.
M1 is a very "clean " oil. Also you do reasonable oil change intervals.


"Don't let your preconceived notions get in the way of facts."
Geoff Metcalf
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812773
07/12/18 10:27 PM
07/12/18 10:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,950
Sequim, WA
edhackett Offline
edhackett  Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,950
Sequim, WA
If that's the case, why is it that Japanese manufactures lobbied the API to have 0W-20 exempt from passing the TEOST test? Is it a coincidence that a majority of manufactures from Japan that specify 0W-20 oils are involved in class action lawsuits for oil burning due primarily to ring deposits?

Ed


Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812808
07/12/18 11:27 PM
07/12/18 11:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
FermeLaPorte Offline
FermeLaPorte  Offline
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 542
Texas (south)
I will stick to what my manufacturer says but 5k OCI's are a must


Always Mobil 1
2014 1.6L Nissan Versa Sedan, 5 spd, 5k OCI.
2011 3.5L Chevrolet Impala, Automatic, 5k OCI.
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812809
07/12/18 11:30 PM
07/12/18 11:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 574
Canada
nap Online content
nap  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 574
Canada
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

One question I always wondered about was the relative base-oil quality of the thinner and thicker base stocks within the same base-stock family. In other words, is a thinner Shell Pearl GTL base stock of higher or lower quality than a thicker Shell Pearl GTL base stock?
.


You’ll first need to define “quality”. While busy with that, you may notice that it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. A thin base may be great in formulating a 0W20 but quite lousy if your purpose is a 20W50. And the other way round.

Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812828
07/13/18 12:54 AM
07/13/18 12:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,845
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,845
'Stralia
I encourage anyone to read the article, and understand what that table means.

PN - Paraffinic Neutral besestock (9.9Cst) - 96VI
HPN - as above, but hydrogenated (9.7Cst) - 99VI
NN - Napthenic Neutral (5.05Cst or thereabouts) - 89VI
Next three (HA1-3) are successively hydrogenated aromoatics from cracker stocks)
HA1 - 5.9 Cst - 3VI
HA2 - HA1 hydrogenated 5.1 Cst - 6VI
HA3 - HA2 hydrogenated 4.2 - 20VI
PAO - Polyalphaolefin 5.5Cst - 155VI



The testing is about the hydrogenation of basestocks. ONE of the parameters is deposits LEFT in a thin film test.

The conclusions that Gokhan is drawing regarding
* this paper giving any indication of CLEANING ability (the article mentions lack of solubility with some of the basestocks...incompatible with "cleaning".
* this paper giving indication that thinner basestocks "clean" better than thicker

Is specious...then to draw it into the already flawed BOQI is ridiculous.

Especially when the cleanest with regard to leaving deposits were those with the highest NOACKS, and would therefore have the worst BOQIs.

WOW...

Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812829
07/13/18 12:56 AM
07/13/18 12:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
Oil selection cannot be done looking at one single aspect, if what you're saying is that thinner oils because of their usually higher quality base stocks have better oxidation characteristics that may be correct, but if i went right now and poured ta full syn 0W-20 with great oxidation characteristics in either of my two cars i'm sure they'd be clean as heck but they'd rattle themselves to death laugh and the main bearings would not be happy.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812830
07/13/18 12:58 AM
07/13/18 12:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,845
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,845
'Stralia
I don't think the three basestocks with VIs of 20 and below would be considered even "reasonable", let alone superior

Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812832
07/13/18 01:06 AM
07/13/18 01:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
Let me take a seat, looks like this is going to be an interesting thread popcorn2


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812840
07/13/18 01:52 AM
07/13/18 01:52 AM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,232
WA (USA)
Y_K Offline
Y_K  Offline
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,232
WA (USA)
Gokhan Strikes Agaain, GSA.

And a new verb: to gokhan.


"This forum talking about 4wd systems is like when other forums talk about oil." © 2018 FlyPenFly
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: edhackett] #4812853
07/13/18 02:28 AM
07/13/18 02:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: edhackett
If that's the case, why is it that Japanese manufactures lobbied the API to have 0W-20 exempt from passing the TEOST test? Is it a coincidence that a majority of manufactures from Japan that specify 0W-20 oils are involved in class action lawsuits for oil burning due primarily to ring deposits?

Ed

The reason for the TEOST exemption was that they wanted to load their 0W-20's with moly, which leads to deposits. It has nothing to do with the base oil or viscosity.

Japanese engines are the most reliable out there, period. Are you talking about the 2AZ-FE engine, which is only one exception, which actually recommended 5W-30?


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 270,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Gokhan] #4812854
07/13/18 02:32 AM
07/13/18 02:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,988
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,988
Texas
PP is going to use GTL regardless … huge investment to recover … M1 EP in 0w20 has twice the PAO compared to M1 AFE 0w20 … AFE not recommended to 15k (but some have done that) …

Re: Thin cleans better, allows longer OCI than thick! [Re: Y_K] #4812855
07/13/18 02:36 AM
07/13/18 02:36 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,652
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Gokhan Strikes Agaain, GSA.

And a new verb: to gokhan.

LOL


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
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