We are out of R12 already!

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Its getting hard to find.We had 60 lbs of R12 at the beginning of Summer. Its all gone as of today. And the hot season isn't here yet. There are a few cars that can't be retrofitted to R134a and those people are going to be hurting this summer.
 
When It became harder to find a shop that could charge R12, I took it off my 1985 Saab Turbo 900 SPG.

I figured since I wasnt going to use it might as well loose the weight.

I honestly didn't know some folks still use it.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Considering they quit making it over 20 years ago, I'm not shocked!
people still walk in with 30 and 50 pound jugs of it they found in grandpa's garage.
 
2 questions:
1: why can't some vehicles be converted to R134a?
2: if a customer comes in with an R12 vehicle, and it CAN be converted to R134a, but the customer wants to stick with R12, do you refuse and tell them you need to save the R12 for cars that can't be converted?
 
Originally Posted By: 123Saab


I honestly didn't know some folks still use it.
a few cars can't be retrofitted to R134a....well not easily. Late 80's Cadillacs and suburbans won't retrofit. Still have many of those around here. Enough to use up all my R12!

The Cadillacs are all computer controlled ac. The r134a has just enough pressure difference that it trips the low refrigerant light and turns off the system. The big suburbans are barrely adequate with r12 and r134 just won't cool them.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: 123Saab


I honestly didn't know some folks still use it.
a few cars can't be retrofitted to R134a....well not easily. Late 80's Cadillacs and suburbans won't retrofit. Still have many of those around here. Enough to use up all my R12!

The Cadillacs are all computer controlled ac. The r134a has just enough pressure difference that it trips the low refrigerant light and turns off the system. The big suburbans are barrely adequate with r12 and r134 just won't cool them.


You probably know this better than me, but I've never been satisfied with an R134a conversion in any car(and that includes doing it "right" with complete purge, seal replacement, and then a pump down and fill with R134a and the proper oil). R134a isn't as efficient of a refrigerant as R12, and in my experience systems designed for R12 just don't cool as well on R134a.

I wish that it was legal to use propane/isobutane the mixture in the proper proportion operates at similar pressures to R12 and supposedly is a bit more efficient.
 
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: 123Saab


I honestly didn't know some folks still use it.
a few cars can't be retrofitted to R134a....well not easily. Late 80's Cadillacs and suburbans won't retrofit. Still have many of those around here. Enough to use up all my R12!

The Cadillacs are all computer controlled ac. The r134a has just enough pressure difference that it trips the low refrigerant light and turns off the system. The big suburbans are barrely adequate with r12 and r134 just won't cool them.


Is propane-iso illegal , or is it just illegal for a shop to do it?
 
Originally Posted By: exranger06
2 questions:
1: why can't some vehicles be converted to R134a?
2: if a customer comes in with an R12 vehicle, and it CAN be converted to R134a, but the customer wants to stick with R12, do you refuse and tell them you need to save the R12 for cars that can't be converted?
no I give them the option.
 
Originally Posted By: exranger06
2 questions:
1: why can't some vehicles be converted to R134a?
R12 is a very efficient refrigerant. It does not require a high efficiency condenser or electric fans to work well. When you have a system thats barely adequate with R12 and you retrofit it to R134a it just won't cool on our hot summer days.

Any Honda with a diesel Kiki ( yes that's a compressor manufacturer) won't retrofit. The compressor can't handle the extra pressures. Cadillacs have a computer controlled ac system and the slightly different pressures make the system turn off. Gm Vans and suburbans just have too big of an area to cool and not enough condenser to do it.
 
Originally Posted By: spasm3


Is propane-iso illegal , or is it just illegal for a shop to do it?

Doesn't meet EPA, MACS and ASHRAE standards for mobile refrigeration - propane-iso is obviously flammable and poses a risk in a collision - the same concern was raised by Daimler with HF-1234yo.

Chemours markets a HC blend to replace R-134a and R-12 for mobile AC but they can't sell it here.
 
Makes me wonder what I’ll do for my ‘91 Previa. It’s on R12 now. I think some of the later models ran r134a. Should I stock up on R12, make retrofit when the leaks get too bad, or give up on then AC haha.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Cadillacs have a computer controlled ac system and the slightly different pressures make the system turn off.


That can most assuredly be tricked or bypassed.
Not that you really want to convert, but at some point someone is going to have to do the legwork of putting together a circuit to trick that computer, or bypass it completely.
 
Originally Posted By: Kurtatron
Makes me wonder what I’ll do for my ‘91 Previa. It’s on R12 now. I think some of the later models ran r134a. Should I stock up on R12, make retrofit when the leaks get too bad, or give up on then AC haha.

The Lexus LS400 of that era used AC system that was like the Cadillac systems Chris142 works on and those cool decently with R-134a.

I would imagine the Previa would do OK on R-134a, provided it's a standard TXV and cycling clutch system - but there isn't too much air flow at the condenser.
 
Originally Posted By: Colt45ws
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Cadillacs have a computer controlled ac system and the slightly different pressures make the system turn off.


That can most assuredly be tricked or bypassed.
Not that you really want to convert, but at some point someone is going to have to do the legwork of putting together a circuit to trick that computer, or bypass it completely.


Yes, there must be a pressure sensor somewhere in the system. It will probably send a voltage proportional to pressure. You would need to replace it with one that sent the same voltage at a lower pressure. They should be a standard catalog item from an electronics supplier (Digi-Key, Mouser, etc) and they should be available at different pressures. At worst you would have to DIY the fitting (remove & replace the OEM sender with yours in the housing) or the wire connector.
 
Originally Posted By: nthach
Doesn't meet EPA, MACS and ASHRAE standards for mobile refrigeration - propane-iso is obviously flammable and poses a risk in a collision - the same concern was raised by Daimler with HF-1234yo.


Yes, a whole bunch of stupid makes it illegal...worry about the half pound of propane, and ignore the hundreds of pounds of gasoline (or propane, as I've had before).

and ignore the flammability of the "new" "approved" products.

That's lobbying from the Kettering era for you.

Oz fridges have in recent years been shipped with HC refrigerants...big improvements in energy efficiency.
 
Originally Posted By: bunnspecial
Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: 123Saab


I honestly didn't know some folks still use it.
a few cars can't be retrofitted to R134a....well not easily. Late 80's Cadillacs and suburbans won't retrofit. Still have many of those around here. Enough to use up all my R12!

The Cadillacs are all computer controlled ac. The r134a has just enough pressure difference that it trips the low refrigerant light and turns off the system. The big suburbans are barrely adequate with r12 and r134 just won't cool them.


You probably know this better than me, but I've never been satisfied with an R134a conversion in any car(and that includes doing it "right" with complete purge, seal replacement, and then a pump down and fill with R134a and the proper oil). R134a isn't as efficient of a refrigerant as R12, and in my experience systems designed for R12 just don't cool as well on R134a.

I wish that it was legal to use propane/isobutane the mixture in the proper proportion operates at similar pressures to R12 and supposedly is a bit more efficient.

I retrofitted my 92 Accord and I get 41 degree vent temps on an 85 degree day. Everyone told me not to retrofit it, that it wasn't going to cool well, etc. I'm glad I didn't listen to them.
 
R12 is all over eBay. I picked up three cans last month for my 240sx, $75 for two 12-oz cans and one 14-oz can.

Ebay, Craigslist, flea markets, garage sales.... there is plenty of R12 still out there if you want it.
 
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