Cost of ethanol blends?

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Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Not many gasoline based motors get the mileage of a diesel based motor. Many diesels, when operated and maintained properly, will go beyond 1 million miles. But under the right circumstances, some of the new E85 specific motors do get equivalent fuel economy on E85 compared to diesel. The Ricardo 3.6L EBDI E85 and the Cummins 2.8L ETHOS E85 come to mind. And since E85 specific motors have not gone mainstream, we really have no data about longevity compared to their diesel counterparts. Similar components are used, similar compression ratios, etc so one can assume similar life cycles.


You keep claiming economy, but all I can find is "efficiency" parity.

If there's less energy in a gallon...burned at the same efficiency...there's less MPG...pure and simple.

Have asked you for links, for year on where you get the same mileage claims, when I can only get efficiency.

Please provide your sources for mileage parity so that others can see and evaluate your claims.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
[quote=.

If there's less energy in a gallon...burned at the same efficiency...there's less MPG...pure and simple.

Have asked you for links, for year on where you get the same mileage claims, when I can only get efficiency.

Please provide your sources for mileage parity so that others can see and evaluate your claims.


That's the key. The efficiency of alcohol can be better. You don't get the preignition with alcohol, and can use less of it. I've seen this first hand using it in my corvette without richening the carb jets.

Proof proof, you want proof. There just hasn't been that much study yet.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette

That's the key. The efficiency of alcohol can be better. You don't get the preignition with alcohol, and can use less of it. I've seen this first hand using it in my corvette without richening the carb jets.

Proof proof, you want proof. There just hasn't been that much study yet.


Ricardo have been playing with that system since 2005.

I'm challenging (again( the statements of TiredTrucker that the Ricardo engine (specifically, he keeps stating it) delivers the same mileage as a diesel engine...that's the proof that I'm after.

If you can provide it great, but I want TT to provide the proof of his statements...even just a couple of links.

ALL that I can find from Ricardo, the researchers and purveyors of the technology, is that the engines deliver the EFFICIENCY of a diesel.

Which, as I stated equal efficiency, less energy per gallon..equals less MPG.

(Is it honestly that hard to comprehend ???)
 
e.g

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/press-releases/ricardo-presents-best-in-class-ethanol-combustion

Quote:
In his presentation on Friday, Ricardo’s Thomas Apostolos said that the company's Extreme Boosted Direct Injection (EBDI) engine has the potential to deliver best-in-class efficiency for ethanol combustion. He outlined a technology approach wherein an EBDI engine achieved diesel like fuel efficiency from a spark ignited engine. Torque performance characteristics were also similar to that of a diesel across a broad range of engine speeds, when running on E85.


either TT is misrepresenting the issue (what I believe), or he's lost the links to the basis of his argument.
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD

My thoughts on location? For years we fed cattle with corn and counted on good spring rain (which we just had). Now for fuel, that’s a full blown supply chain so the “locations” for today’s massive corn fields is follow the river to use that water and the overuse will flow back to said river that flows to the estuaries and the bays etc.

Now every 100’ is a sign showing what chemical is enhancing the growth rate etc … go figure.


Your assumptions are faulty. Only 15% of all crops in the U.S. are irrigated. That is all crops... lettuce, green beans, and yes even corn. Irrigation of corn fields is a small percentage of the total corn grown. Iowa is the largest corn producer in the nation, and hardly anyone in Iowa irrigates the crop. No need. Rain is enough. And computer controlled application rates of herbicides, pesticides, and fertilizers is making it so run off problems have decreased tremendously. Application rates are measured down to the nearest 10 ft of a crop field. Even the farming equipment is controlled and guided by GPS and computers during planting on many of the major farming operations.

Truth be told, many of the corn fields that are irrigated are being grown to produce seed for the next year. A small percentage of the overall corn crop production.

The majority of water pollution from fertilizers and other stuff is coming from the cities. Too many folks in town are over applying chemicals to make their lawns lush and green without any crabgrass or dandelions. Those in town need to take a look at what they are doing before criticizing farming operations. Due to automatic systems, some are irrigating their lawns many times even while it is raining!! I see it all the time. City use of water for irrigation nationwide probably exceeds the total farm use of irrigation.
 
Originally Posted By: AP9
For many years in Illinois, until the middle of last year there was a 20% sales tax exemption on E10 or higher gasohol blends. Still in effect today, there is no state sales tax on E85.


So now something that isn't taxed is getting a subsidy? Subsidies, by the very definition of the term, is money taken from one group and given to another. Just because a product is not taxed doesn't mean taxpayers are paying for anything. it just means the gooberment isn't taking it's cut.
 
Originally Posted By: nap
It's called "tax expenditure" and is considered to be a form of subsidy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_expenditure



That is dependent on you view of economics, government, and taxation. So.. if we allow folks to take a credit for child care expenses, then that is a subsidy? If we allow folks to deduct their home mortgage interest, that is a subsidy? I suppose the standard deduction, which is now $24,000 per person, is also a subsidy, right?

Only those who think that government has a claim to all assets, expenditures, income, etc think that a lack of taxing something is a subsidy.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: nap
It's called "tax expenditure" and is considered to be a form of subsidy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_expenditure



That is dependent on you view of economics, government, and taxation. So.. if we allow folks to take a credit for child care expenses, then that is a subsidy? If we allow folks to deduct their home mortgage interest, that is a subsidy?


Of COURSE it's a subsidy...it makes the nett cost of something cheaper to a group doing certain things...how can you consider it anything else ?

A general, population wide deduction aka tax free threshold in other places is NOT the same.

And as to the final strawman in your "argument"...not worthy of response.
 
It doesn't matter if there is a subsidy.

Nothing is completely fair. Quit crying.

We have a very viable renewable competing product that ain't going away.
 
For me at least it is $2.17 a gallon here and premium is $3.17 at my current cost per mile I'm ahead of the game running E85.

Also the benefits, at least this is how I see them, burns cleaner and my truck has better throttle response and pep. That and lower cost per mile for now it is my main fuel. I have been running it in my nonflex fuel vehicle for over two years with no issues.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It doesn't matter if there is a subsidy.

Nothing is completely fair. Quit crying.


I'm not crying, I'm answering fallacious statements...

You lot don't care WHAT you say and throw out there, regardless of how factually incorrect it is.

So you agree that it's subsidised...take that up with the truck driver, whose livelihood is dependent on the industry, and relies on untruth and distortions to justify it...

and if it's "very viable" competition, why does it need a hand in pushing it ?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It doesn't matter if there is a subsidy.

Nothing is completely fair. Quit crying.



This sounds like the distilled essence of the ecotalibans discourse...
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
Originally Posted By: nap
It's called "tax expenditure" and is considered to be a form of subsidy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_expenditure



That is dependent on you view of economics, government, and taxation. So.. if we allow folks to take a credit for child care expenses, then that is a subsidy? If we allow folks to deduct their home mortgage interest, that is a subsidy?


Of COURSE it's a subsidy...it makes the nett cost of something cheaper to a group doing certain things...how can you consider it anything else ?

A general, population wide deduction aka tax free threshold in other places is NOT the same.

And as to the final strawman in your "argument"...not worthy of response.


Oil is heavily subsidized on the supply side
from guaranteed easements
To subsidized low cost electricity to refineries
To “government assistance “ with repairs and cleanup activity (you do know 5% of oil is lost between ground and consumer)
To the many tax exemptions
And I could go on...

Remove these and gas prices would go up 50-100% in these United States

If we want to discuss “ethanol subsidies “ we also have to look at the multitude of write offs,
Heck in my area tanker trucks get every penny of road tax refunded in the form of a write off
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow


So you agree that it's subsidised...take that up with the truck driver, whose livelihood is dependent on the industry, and relies on untruth and distortions to justify it...



For every one of those, there are 1000 people working in oil doing the same thing. Then you just have clueless people worried about their string trimmer and car.

Oil prices fell off a cliff, then a lot of people got laid off and they blame it on ethanol, not the Saudis. The big players want to keep price whiplash going so U.S. producers can never gain a foothold.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
For every one of those, there are 1000 people working in oil doing the same thing.


Oooh, facts and data...hook us up with a link to your 1000:1 statistic please.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Oil prices fell off a cliff, then a lot of people got laid off and they blame it on ethanol, not the Saudis. The big players want to keep price whiplash going so U.S. producers can never gain a foothold.

Did that really happen that way? There is a whack of oil production here, and when oil went down the toilet, there really wasn't much complaining about Saudi Arabia in particular, or even OPEC in general. Of course here, we do have an ethanol mandate, but E85 simply doesn't exist. There's one fueling station for it in all of Canada.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
For every one of those, there are 1000 people working in oil doing the same thing.


Oooh, facts and data...hook us up with a link to your 1000:1 statistic please.


I'll write some garbage paper on the matter then post a link to it.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
For every one of those, there are 1000 people working in oil doing the same thing.


Oooh, facts and data...hook us up with a link to your 1000:1 statistic please.


If you can provide the ground up analysis of how the grant and tax structure of “oil subsidies”
Are less than ethanol “subsidies “

I’m sure he can then put up data for your request
 
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