LC20 and uses in modern motor oil

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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Honestly I had no idea they were banned. They did have a small loyal following. I thought sales weren't good here anymore and they took their marbles and went home. The other product I know all about.


It probably just about killed them, this place was about all they had. I haven't thought of them in years, but just looked up their site. Very generic auto generated website copyright 2007. Products still being packaged in generic plastic bottles you can buy on ebay. I wonder if they still have the bad inkjet printed labels that run when you get product on them? Facebook page has less hits than the average teenage girl. "Distributors" page has a single one listed in Thailand.

Let's be honest. If their products really did what they claim (remove carbon, clean your engine, increase fuel mileage, increase OCI), then wouldn't the EPA be requiring this in fuel/oil by now? Or wouldn't a big name oil company have bought them out and slapped their brand on it? Maybe an auto MFR would buy it and require it's use to comply with MPG restrictions?

I can't do anything but laugh when I see their poor website. And that is the only sales tool they have!
 
Originally Posted By: OilFilters
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Honestly I had no idea they were banned. They did have a small loyal following. I thought sales weren't good here anymore and they took their marbles and went home. The other product I know all about.


It probably just about killed them, this place was about all they had. I haven't thought of them in years, but just looked up their site. Very generic auto generated website copyright 2007. Products still being packaged in generic plastic bottles you can buy on ebay. I wonder if they still have the bad inkjet printed labels that run when you get product on them? Facebook page has less hits than the average teenage girl. "Distributors" page has a single one listed in Thailand.

Let's be honest. If their products really did what they claim (remove carbon, clean your engine, increase fuel mileage, increase OCI), then wouldn't the EPA be requiring this in fuel/oil by now? Or wouldn't a big name oil company have bought them out and slapped their brand on it? Maybe an auto MFR would buy it and require it's use to comply with MPG restrictions?

I can't do anything but laugh when I see their poor website. And that is the only sales tool they have!

I had just about forgotten about them. In fact when you mentioned it my curiosity was peaked a bit about what might have happened. I don't ever remember them doing anything to get the boot though....
 
Originally Posted By: synman
Just trying to see if anyone still uses LC20 (Lube Control). The reason I ask is upon looking on the forum it would seem that certain posts allude to that it’s not needed with the newer oils. The ad packs are potent enough to not need LC20. Now here’s the real reason I ask, my wife drives a small car and puts on maybe 5 to 10 miles a day and that's it, wouldn't LC20 help keep the oil in top shape to survive the short drives? or is there a better product? I would hate to have to change the oil every 3 months because of the short drives destroying the oil


While LC20 has good hydrocarbon solving capabilities, it is not needed (as are many other OTC oil additives) in modern engine oils.

If you have a special situation such as a sludged motor and or stuck rings, it will soften and disperse carbon, but otherwise, it is not needed.
 
Originally Posted By: OilFilters


Let's be honest. If their products really did what they claim (remove carbon, clean your engine, increase fuel mileage, increase OCI), then wouldn't the EPA be requiring this in fuel/oil by now? Or wouldn't a big name oil company have bought them out and slapped their brand on it? Maybe an auto MFR would buy it and require it's use to comply with MPG restrictions?

I can't do anything but laugh when I see their poor website. And that is the only sales tool they have!


1) I know nothing of their current marketing campaign or advertising system, but what I said above had been documented many years ago. It is my understanding they are still a small, independent business and have been since they bought the original LC20 patents.

2) The EPA sets standards (many on unscientifc basis) and don't tell manf. what to use.

3) For complete disclosure, I have no current business association or pecuniary interest with them, but I did formulate their FP60 FPPLUS and it was tested by a major lab and it did show small percentages in fuel mileage gains and fuel system cleanliness in both gas and diesel systems. It contains bio-synthetic cleaners as well which was a great advancement in formulating Green component fuel system cleaners.
 
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Wow, OilFilters, you want to cool it a little? I get it, there's a very popular sentiment among many that only engine oil should ever go in and change it per your duty needs in accordance with what's in the manual. If that works for you, great. Please leave the rest of us alone who PREFER to boost oil, to enhance it, to further protect our engines.

If your logic was sound, we'd never see sludge/varnish in any engine changed at the appropriate intervals with the appropriate spec oil. Yet in fact that DOES happen, unfortunately. Sometimes engineers make errors and some engines "cook" oil [looking at you turbo Audis, certain VWs, Subaru head gasket failures, and even some Toyotas]. And you don't have to research too hard to find issues in engines with direct injection from various makes. Then there's the problem of gas in the US being "worse" with ethanol in it. So don't give me the "by the manual" and all you need is oil. Additives have their place.

Another point on your "logic" around additives, that if LC20 worked it would be on every shelf everywhere. Well you know what, Motorkote is on shelves across the US, as is MMO, and my gosh you will find Lucas products at every gas station and truck stop across the country. Perhaps all of those are just snake oil too? Can we instead try helping people make educated decisions? My brother-in-law works for GM in an engine testing facility and has been a mechanic in his barn since he could walk. He has various additives on his shelves and uses them for various purposes when he determines it's needed.

I personally use LC20 and FP+. I get better gas mileage and peace of mind knowing that all my engines will remain clean. That my oil will continue to adequately protect my investments even during times of extreme use. Not everyone uses group 4/5 synthetics. I don't know about you all, but I idle a lot on those cold sub-zero mornings in winter. Also not hard to get stuck in rush hour during 90+ degree days of summer, radiator fans screaming to keep the engine cooled. Those aren't uncommon situations and are hard on the additives already in oils. So I bump it up a notch with LC20.

From what I can tell, LC20/FP became poo around here around the time of the A-rx shills so anyone recommending anything but those 3 products was belittled. Too bad it went down like that, as there are tons of great products out there, but from a preventative maintenance standpoint LC20/FP are relatively low cost and very easy to keep up with. When I run out of FP I get lucas UCL locally until I order another round of LCD inc's stuff.

So use them, or don't use them. I don't really care. However, this is a thread on a specific product on an oil forum and in the additives section. I think we would all appreciate being spared the "downvote brigade" coming in to poopoo ALL additives in the place that seems apt for such discussion.
 
Originally Posted By: synman
Just trying to see if anyone still uses LC20 (Lube Control). The reason I ask is upon looking on the forum it would seem that certain posts allude to that it’s not needed with the newer oils. The ad packs are potent enough to not need LC20. Now here’s the real reason I ask, my wife drives a small car and puts on maybe 5 to 10 miles a day and that's it, wouldn't LC20 help keep the oil in top shape to survive the short drives? or is there a better product? I would hate to have to change the oil every 3 months because of the short drives destroying the oil


Sorry, to address OP, the reason we're all in this thread... LC20 would most likely allow you to take a car with short trips to [whichever comes first] 6-month drain intervals or ~5-6000 miles but having UOAs would give you a better picture. A decent synthetic would probably give the same results, but even then you'll keep the oil in better shape with the additive. I'm sure there's a dozen other products that would also work great but I personally have had good results with LC20. YMMV
 
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Originally Posted By: Olinskis
Wow, OilFilters, you want to cool it a little?


Just posting facts. In addition to that, I am entitled to my opinion as much as anybody else...and mine is more educated than many. Anybody that thinks they are getting a MPG increase from this is all in their head...you simply can't determine that without a dyno and hundreds of test samples. I'm pretty sure Lube Control has never conducted such tests.

I'll repeat. If the product was any good they wouldn't be selling it on such a pathetic looking homemade website that hasn't been updated since 2007 in cheap generic bottles you can buy anywhere. This product is a joke. And yes, I've used it, tested it, spent my own money on it, hoped it would work...and it didn't.

I have not said anything that I could not backup with actual information. If this product was any good it would not be still internet only on an outdated website. Even if it did increase MPG, it will not outweigh the significant cost of the product. It was useless 10 years ago...with modern oils it is even more so.

Originally Posted By: Olinskis
If your logic was sound, we'd never see sludge/varnish in any engine changed at the appropriate intervals with the appropriate spec oil.

If your logic was sound we would never see sludge/varnish in any engine that was treated with LC...but that isn't true.

Originally Posted By: Olinskis
Another point on your "logic" around additives, that if LC20 worked it would be on every shelf everywhere. Well you know what, Motorkote is on shelves across the US, as is MMO, and my gosh you will find Lucas products at every gas station and truck stop across the country.

If all those other products are on the shelves across the US, with questionable effects, then why isn't LC after all these years? Any reason what so ever?? Clearly their website is dying and they have no other source of sales.
 
Originally Posted By: OilFilters

...Just posting facts. In addition to that, I am entitled to my opinion as much as anybody else...and mine is more educated than many. Anybody that thinks they are getting a MPG increase from this is all in their head...you simply can't determine that without a dyno and hundreds of test samples. I'm pretty sure Lube Control has never conducted such tests.



They did conduct tests on FP60 (FP PLUS) with a major laboratory.

People should indeed look at the economics of the situation to determine if their mileage gains (cost of fuel, etc.) outweigh the cost of the product, or vice versa.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: OilFilters

...Just posting facts. In addition to that, I am entitled to my opinion as much as anybody else...and mine is more educated than many. Anybody that thinks they are getting a MPG increase from this is all in their head...you simply can't determine that without a dyno and hundreds of test samples. I'm pretty sure Lube Control has never conducted such tests.



They did conduct tests on FP60 (FP PLUS) with a major laboratory.

People should indeed look at the economics of the situation to determine if their mileage gains (cost of fuel, etc.) outweigh the cost of the product, or vice versa.


Is saving money the only motivation for buying such a product? Lucas UCL and Stabil provide certain benefits. I see FP as those benefits combined. Even if not saving money, one can go farther on a tank if getting higher MPG. Even if you go from let's say 24 mpg to 26 mpg, that's an extra 30 miles on a 15 gallon tank. That's valuable even if you're spending a little extra to do it. How much more valuable? YMMV
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Olinskis
Is saving money the only motivation for buying such a product? Lucas UCL and Stabil provide certain benefits. I see FP as those benefits combined. Even if not saving money, one can go farther on a tank if getting higher MPG. Even if you go from let's say 24 mpg to 26 mpg, that's an extra 30 miles on a 15 gallon tank. That's valuable even if you're spending a little extra to do it. How much more valuable? YMMV
smile.gif



Yes, a top cylinder lube is useful, but you'll get the same results with 2 cycle oil as FP...maybe even better. It cost much, much, MUCH less and you can buy it locally instead of paying for shipping. There is no proof that you go from 24 to 26mpg...one person simply can't determine that in one car.

I went back and looked at the supposed "laboratory" tests on the FP website...I'd say they are suspect at best. Their results are all over the place, unrealistic, and unsupported. They site no sources. There were no dyno tests shown what so ever. They could have just written fake statements themselves. Interestingly, one of the so called "experts" that wrote a statement about them is also banned here. I see a pattern. Of course, he was paid to write a pleasing statement about the product...

It's not like LC is a new product. It's had time to take off, and find it's way into stores. Instead of becoming more popular over the years, it's popularity has dwindled to almost nothing. Did this happen because it works so well? They obviously aren't even making enough money to update their website in over 10 years. That's sad. It's full of dead links and inaccurate information.
 
Originally Posted By: OilFilters


...I went back and looked at the supposed "laboratory" tests on the FP website...I'd say they are suspect at best. Their results are all over the place, unrealistic, and unsupported. They site no sources. There were no dyno tests shown what so ever. They could have just written fake statements themselves. Interestingly, one of the so called "experts" that wrote a statement about them is also banned here. I see a pattern. Of course, he was paid to write a pleasing statement about the product...



OK, so for some unknown reason you don't like LCD, Inc., that's apparent.

But I don't think SWRI makes false statements.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

OK, so for some unknown reason you don't like LCD, Inc., that's apparent.

But I don't think SWRI makes false statements.


I'm just saying there is no actual proof that this does anything. Even the so called proof...is not proof! I have nothing against LCD...it's just that their products are totally unproven, even after decades in the market. With that said...the market has left them behind. Coincidence?

I'll repeat. If it was any good, a big name company would have bought it up. Or copied it. Surely they've had it tested and know what the components are by now. They aren't interested. Another coincidence?

This would be a different conversation if it was something new to the market. It is very much not.
 
Originally Posted By: OilFilters
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

OK, so for some unknown reason you don't like LCD, Inc., that's apparent.

But I don't think SWRI makes false statements.


I'm just saying there is no actual proof that this does anything. Even the so called proof...is not proof! I have nothing against LCD...it's just that their products are totally unproven, even after decades in the market. With that said...the market has left them behind. Coincidence?

I'll repeat. If it was any good, a big name company would have bought it up. Or copied it. Surely they've had it tested and know what the components are by now. They aren't interested. Another coincidence?

This would be a different conversation if it was something new to the market. It is very much not.



Maybe you could offer to help them with your extensive Marketing and Formulation experience?

I don't buy the "big name would buy them out" scenario as you keep tirelessly repeating. No one has bought Amsoil out or has been allowed to buy them out. Some business prefer to remain independent and not part of some large conglomerate.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I don't buy the "big name would buy them out" scenario as you keep tirelessly repeating. No one has bought Amsoil out or has been allowed to buy them out. Some business prefer to remain independent and not part of some large conglomerate.

Do you work for Amsoil? How do you know nobody has tried to buy them out? They don't make a magic snake oil product anyway...they make synthetic oil. Other companies already do that.

Nobody believes that LCD is grasping to their "secret" recipe "to stay independent". They are all but out of business. I'm sure if anybody offered them a serious amount of money they would take it.

More likely, a bigger company would simply copy their product and not pay them for it or ask permission, maybe changing it ever so slightly to avoid patent infringement. That hasn't happened, either. It's not like the LCD brand name means much to almost anybody. Their logo doesn't sell product. In fact when you check google looking for their website you mostly come across "personal" lubricants. It's not hard these days to analyze a chemical mixture and see what it's made out of. If Lucas, for example, wanted to sell the same thing...nothing is stopping them.
 
What did they do to you? I mean in the pro audio industry, Behringer has a pretty bad reputation for basically copying competitor designs, having really poor support, and generally lower quality [albeit low cost] products, etc. So people like to hate on them and recommend other more reputable names.

Your arguments are basically that they aren't on store shelves and have an older website so they obviously must not work... what?
 
Originally Posted By: Olinskis
So, https://www.lubecontrol.com/ fresh off the presses, 2018. I wonder what's motivating you, beyond just your opinions...


That's not what pops up when you google "lube control", so another fail by their marketing department.

My motivation is I don't like snake oil and people who blindly support it without any evidence what so ever. Some people seem to think their opinions are more important than others, so I am forced to pick them apart...

LCD products simply cost too much for what you get, even if they did have a very, very, very minor benefit. As for the original poster here, LC is not the answer to the problem, but it sure seems like he wanted somebody to say it was.
 
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