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Additive Component Chemistry IX #4801885
06/30/18 09:37 PM
06/30/18 09:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
This formula is composed of the following:

Performance Improver - 7% (All additive chemistries necessary for the application).
Viscosity Index Improver (VII) - 3.6%
Ester - 12% (2.7 cSt)
PAO 2 - 9.4% (~ 2.1 cSt)
PAO 6 - 68% (~ 5.9 cSt)

Hints: It has a Brookfield Viscosity of approx. 3,850 and a Kinematic viscosity of 3.1 [email protected]

Please identify the 1) fluid, and its 2) application.

This question is open to all.


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4801911
06/30/18 10:15 PM
06/30/18 10:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,979
USA
147_Grain Offline
147_Grain  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,979
USA
Mobil 1 EP 5W-30

Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: 147_Grain] #4802077
07/01/18 07:46 AM
07/01/18 07:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,689
Jacksonville, FL
FlyNavyP3 Online content
FlyNavyP3  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,689
Jacksonville, FL
Originally Posted By: 147_Grain
Mobil 1 EP 5W-30


Too thin for a J300 30


Luke
P-3C and P-8A Maritime Weapons and Tactics Instructor, Instructor Tactical Coordinator and Mission Commander
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4802383
07/01/18 12:57 PM
07/01/18 12:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,647
Western S.C.
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,647
Western S.C.
I'll guess some sort of ATF.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 94K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4802391
07/01/18 01:05 PM
07/01/18 01:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,308
Naperville, IL
wwillson Offline

Administrator
wwillson  Offline

Administrator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,308
Naperville, IL
1) Compressor oil

2) Lubricate refrigerant compressors

Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: wwillson] #4802568
07/01/18 05:32 PM
07/01/18 05:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,569
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: wwillson
1) Compressor oil

2) Lubricate refrigerant compressors



I've been bouncing off compressor oil for the last day.

Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4802599
07/01/18 06:15 PM
07/01/18 06:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
One of the two most recent responses were correct. cool

Would anyone else venture a shot? shoot


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4802687
07/01/18 08:11 PM
07/01/18 08:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
Thanks to all who responded.

CR94 fires off with the correct answer and receives the virtual BITOG Coffee Mug with the Piston Cup Gold Leaf Lettering. happy

Depending on the type of the PI package, this is a formula for a low viscosity (LV), Highly Stable, fuel efficient ATF for Step-Shift transmissions.

The Kinematic Viscosity is 5.9 to 6.02 [email protected]

The PI package would contain the following representative chemistries:

Succinimide dispersant
fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, and any mixtures of the above As Friction Modifiers.
di(para-nonyl phenylamine) - As the Anti-Oxidant
dialkyl hydrogen phosphite - As the Anti-wear
tolyltriazole - As the Corrosion Inhibitor
alkylthiodimercaptothiadiazole - As the Metal Deactivator
silicone/fluorosilicone - as the Anti-foam agent

The finished ATF would of course also contain 250-500 ppm of Red, Amber, or a Blue organic dye, the base oils, and of course a stable Polymethacrylate Viscosity Index Improver (VII).


Questions? Comments?


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4806118
07/05/18 05:52 PM
07/05/18 05:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,520
Iowegia - USA
One Additional Note:

ATF if a special hydraulic oil for the following purposes:
Lubrication for gears.
Cooling and heat transfer.
Transmitting torque via the Torque Converter.
Friction modification for clutch packs, bands, Torque Converter Clutch.

One of its more important duties of ATF is to make sure the fluid's coefficient of friction is matched to the friction materials inside the tranny. I.e., to ensure the proper static and dynamic coefficients of friction during engagement/disengagement.

In the early days of AT's the clutch material was composed of cellulose material with cotton and other soft materials in a phenolic resin binder. Today, hybrid materials are used.

Hybrid (or composite) materials are typically manufactured using a process similar to that used for paper-based materials, but using carbon fibers in combination with organic or synthetic fibers such as Kevlar and aramid fibers.

Many of the clutch materials from various manufacturers are close in terms of static and dynamic friction coefficients.

The clutch disc material of Automatic Transmissions, and other wet clutch applications, are made of porous friction materials which are bonded to steel core plates.

Friction materials may include cellulose, carbon fiber, Aramids, fiberglass, or a combination of materials (composites).

Today, composites are the norm.

Note: Sintered metal composites may be found in HDD applications.

This material must exhibit:

1.) Mu(o), low speed dynamic coefficient; affected by friction material ingredients and ATF additives adsorption

2.) Mu(i), initial dynamic coefficient at high speed; affected by hydrodynamic effects/porosity/compression/roughness.

When an additive company tests its ATF additive package, many transmissions are run through the SAE2 and other friction test machines (JASO M349-98, R-H Friction Apparatus, ZF GK Test Bench, Low Velocity Friction Apparatus, etc) to determine if the Friction Modifier set is appropriate.

The friction characteristics (Mu verses Velocity) of the clutch/fluid system are carefully monitored for each separate transmission and fluid formulation.

Mu is coefficient of friction plotted on the vertical axis, V is the relative speed of rotating components plotted on the horizontal axis. Mu(v) then is the resulting curve of the frictional characteristics of the clutch/fluid system.

The appropriate FM additive type and levels are then determined for the complete additive package.

I bring this up because of the above list of ATF Friction Modifiers:

fatty phosphites, fatty acid amides, fatty epoxides, borated fatty epoxides, fatty amines, glycerol esters, borated glycerol esters, alkoxylated fatty amines, and borated alkoxylated fatty amines, metal salts of fatty acids, sulfurized olefins, fatty imidazolines, non-hydroxyl fatty tertiary amines, and any mixtures of the above.

The exact composition of and specific chemistry (molecular structure) of the Friction Modifier(s) are closely guarded secrets.

With the many different chemistries and potential mixes available, I think one can now see why Mutli-Vehicle fluids can be manufactured.

Ford Type "F" ATF is a fluid with very low levels of friction modification and has a Mu(V) curve separate and apart from either the Dexron Series or the Chrysler ATF+ series.

Ford Type "F" ATF is often used today in racing transmissions such as the PowerGlide and TH400 Turbohydramatics because of the positive lockup, IE, little to no slip in the clutch packs during engagement.

Chrysler ATF+ fluids are on the other end of the spectrum and exhibit a completely different Mu(V) characteristic.

For a more Technical Study on ATs and heat transfer one can go to:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/automatic-transmissions-study/


Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry IX [Re: MolaKule] #4806726
07/06/18 10:36 AM
07/06/18 10:36 AM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,647
Western S.C.
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,647
Western S.C.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
... CR94 fires off with the correct answer and receives the virtual BITOG Coffee Mug with the Piston Cup Gold Leaf Lettering. happy ...
Thank you sir! I shall treasure it! With the low-viscosity synthetics in your recipe, I could tell it was a modern version, but couldn't guess further detail.

Now, per Toyota recommendation, I'm using their WS ATF in a transmission in which friction modifiers are irrelevant, as far as I know. (My previous car used Type F ATF in a manual.)


2011 Toyota Prius now at 94K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K

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