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TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM #4796334 06/24/18 01:54 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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Hey folks,

Just did my first UOA. I had a few objectives:
1) Find out whether 8,000km (Canada) or 16,000km (USA) is a reasonable OCI. Looks like 8,000km might be low, except that the KV100 on the used oil was really low.
2) See if I have a leakage problem or a loose air filter. I didn't.
3) Establish a wear baseline using stock oil and filter, and see how it changes when I start replacing those. I've switched to GC 0W30.

Anyone have any comments? Thanks.


According to Blackstone Labs:

"Universal Averages show typical wear for the 2GR-FSE engine after ~10,000 km of oil use.
This sample was in place over a slightly shorter run, and most metals stack up nicely with averages. Iron is
a little above the average, but 24 ppm isn't a troubling amount of steel wear. Iron tracks with use so perhaps
this engine just sees "spirited" driving or idling, something like that. A little extra iron may turn out to be
normal. We'll know more as trends develop, but for now, all looks good. The low flashpoint/trace of fuel is
harmless. Try up to 10,000 km next.

I have placed universal averages in parentheses. Universal averages were for 10,000km.

Aluminum: 3ppm (3)
Chromium: 0ppm (0)
Iron: 24ppm (13)
Copper: 0ppm (5)
Lead: 0ppm (1)
Tin: 0ppm (0)
Moly: 41ppm (84)
Nickel: 0ppm (0)
Manganese: 0ppm (0)
Silver: 0ppm (0)
Titanium: 1ppm (1)
Potassium: 0ppm (2)
Boron: 3ppm (40)
Silicon: 10ppm (17)
Sodium: 13ppm (54)
Calcium: 2311ppm (2011)
Magnesium: 16ppm (189)
Phosphorous: 682ppm (666)
Zinc: 744ppm (789)
Barium: 0ppm (0)

SUS Viscosity: 49.5 (46-57)
cSt Viscosity @ 100: 7.12 (6.0-9.7)
Flashpoint: 385 (>385)
Fuel: TR (<2.0%)
Antifreeze: 0
Water: 0
Insolubles: 0.4%
TBN: 3.5

Edit. Note that I am aware my post is of suboptimal formatting. I will fix it when I get back to a computer - I did this by phone.

Last edited by David_Corbett; 06/24/18 02:07 PM.

2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4797051 06/25/18 10:18 AM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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OK, fixing it up here.

Code:
OIL             TGMO 0W20  (UNIVERSAL AVG.)
MILES IN USE    5,050      ~6250     
MILES           73,600   
SAMPLE TAKEN    06/03/18 

ALUMINUM        3          3        
CHROMIUM        0          0        
IRON            24         13
COPPER          0          5       
LEAD            0          1       
TIN             0          0        
MOLYBDENUM      41         84       
NICKEL          0          0        
MANGANESE       0          0        
SILVER          0          0        
TITANIUM        1          1        
POTASSIUM       0          2       
BORON           3          40       
SILICON         10         17        
SODIUM          13         54       
CALCIUM         2311       2011     
MAGNESIUM       16         189      
PHOSPHORUS      682        666      
ZINC            744        789     
BARIUM          0          0
     
SUS VIS 210F   49.5       46-57
cSt @ 212F     7.12       6.0-9.7
FLASHPOINT F   385        >385      
FUEL %          TR         <2.0
ANTIFREEZE      0.0        0.0
WATER           0.0        <0.1
INSOLUBLES      0.4        <0.6              
TBN             3.5        >1.0


2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4797138 06/25/18 12:24 PM
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ltslimjim Offline
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You could go towards 10k miles but perhaps check on TBN at 8k miles. Why the change to GC 30w? Looks good other than the iron so maybe another oil would help lower that. thumbsup

Look forward to next report! drive


92 Civic Hatch (stolen frown RIP)
07 Honda Fit Sport (A/T) WELCOME thumbsup
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: ltslimjim] #4799774 06/28/18 02:09 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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The short answer is that I went to 30-weight oil because both the engine and the engine family were originally designed to use it. In fact, when they were putting the same engine in the IS350 for model year 2013, they were still suggesting 5W30!

So, why the change? The general assumption is to improve CAFE numbers. Paranoid types also suggest that Toyota (et al) wanted to lower the longevity of their engines, but I doubt it; any anticipated wear increase was probably within bounds that they consider nominal for the majority of users and therefore was an appropriate trade-off. Of course, people with different priorities and different assumed usage patterns will naturally make different trade-offs, and as always: the best-laid plans o' mice an' men gang aft agley, right?

I often travel between a pair of places separated by a mountain pass, which naturally involves really long inclines, consistent engine braking on the downhill, and the need to make WOT passes uphill on two-lane highways to get around motorhomes, semi-trucks, and idiots. Presumably this is a tough usage pattern. Of course, if the numbers come back unchanged, I'll probably just go back to the 0W20.

As for why GC: I chose it because it is a very well respected motor oil that meets tough European standards and is genuinely full-synthetic (FWIW, which might not be much). No particular reason beyond that. If the 30-weight experiment works out, I'll have to consider whether other 30s would work as well. Amsoil is probably next on my list, as they also offer an oil filter for my car and it'd make more sense to go for the membership and 25% discount if I'm packing purchases together.

I generally believe in troubleshooting by changing one thing at a time. As alluded to above, the next thing I'm planning on doing is swapping out is my oil filter once I've established a baseline with the current one.

EDIT: Oh, for what it's worth, after seeing my oil sheared way down to 7.12 cSt I have to say that I likely won't use TGMO 0W20 in the engine again. Call me old-fashioned, but that feels low; new Mobil1 0W-20 has a typical starting viscosity of 8.7; Amsoil is like 8.8, RLI is 9.1! 7.12 is very, very low - darn near a 0W-16.

Last edited by David_Corbett; 06/28/18 02:19 PM.

2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4948167 12/10/18 12:16 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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Posting to bump this thread back into active discussion. It's been 10,000km, and I'm about to send in my first GC 0W-30 oil sample. We'll see if it comes back measurably different from the first set of oil!

(I know this isn't spectacular science, n=1 and all, but avoiding the surprise of 7.12 cSt is hopefully something I can manage this time...)


2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4948437 12/10/18 06:29 PM
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Wildcard Offline
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I have the same car so im glad to see someone elses results, i do a BIT of spirited driving once the engine is warm and im not overly impressed with tgmo either. Im trying out pennzoil ultra right now, we will see what happens. Im very curious about your GC results. Why are your moly numbers so low i wonder? Mine are in the hundreds still.


2002 acura 3.5RL
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: Wildcard] #4949034 12/11/18 02:33 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Wildcard
I have the same car so im glad to see someone elses results, i do a BIT of spirited driving once the engine is warm and im not overly impressed with tgmo either. Im trying out pennzoil ultra right now, we will see what happens. Im very curious about your GC results. Why are your moly numbers so low i wonder? Mine are in the hundreds still.


Very good question. As mentioned, the viscosity was also extremely low, and the flash point somewhat depressed. (Fuel dilution?) The initial results were very unexpected.

The oil change should be today and I'll send the items in promptly - let's hope that there is some improvement. The other change will be switching from the regular Toyota filter to a considerably more expensive Amsoil one; I don't expect too much improvement here, and so if I don't see it I'll be going back to a cheaper option.

I'll probably be switching away from GC after a couple of OCIs and trying a more affordable, less thick oil to see if results worsen. As you know, but for the benefits of our American friends, in Canada, it's hugely expensive; we're looking at around $14/litre, while I can get good synthetic for less than half of that if I catch a decent sale. Considering that I have to buy 7 litres for a change... it adds up.


2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4949183 12/11/18 05:31 PM
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Wildcard Offline
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Yup amsoil is pretty expensive and i just dont see the value either. Im gonna do some pennzoil runs and if that doesnt improve anything i might take the “whatevers on sale” approach or stick to tgmo, its decently priced but i was just hoping to find out what better oil options there were for this engine, above tgmo.


2002 acura 3.5RL
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4973436 01/08/19 05:48 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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OK, my sample information came back - complete with ISO cleanliness codes and a particle count analysis! Time to take a look and see what's going on here:


Code
OIL                 GC 0W-30 	TGMO 0W20  (UNIVERSAL AVG.)
MILES IN USE        ~6,250	5,050      ~6250     
MILES               79,500	73,600   
SAMPLE TAKEN        12/11/18    06/03/18 

ALUMINUM            2           3          3        
CHROMIUM            0           0          0        
IRON                26          24         13
COPPER              3           0          5       
LEAD                0           0          1       
TIN                 0           0          0        
MOLYBDENUM          8           41         84       
NICKEL              0           0          0        
MANGANESE           0           0          0        
SILVER              0           0          0        
TITANIUM            39          1          1        
POTASSIUM           1           0          2       
BORON               46          3          40       
SILICON             17          10         17        
SODIUM              7           13         54       
CALCIUM             2559        2311       2011     
MAGNESIUM           34          16         189      
PHOSPHORUS          838         682        666      
ZINC                997         744        789     
BARIUM              0           0          0
     
SUS VIS 210�F       59.0        49.5      
cSt @ 212�F         9.94        7.12       
FLASHPOINT �F       360         385        >385      
FUEL %               1.3         TR         <2.0
ANTIFREEZE           0           0.0        0.0
WATER                0           0.0        <0.1
INSOLUBLES           0.2         0.4        <0.6              
TBN                  3.8         3.5        >1.0

ISO CODE	     24/24/16
NAS 1638	     12
SAE AS4059 cpc	     12
4μ		     150707.2
6μ		     83551.7
14μ 		     581.7
21μ		     155.2
38μ		     15.3
70μ		     3.6


Well, I have to say that I'm not terribly impressed by the ISO codes here - 24/24/16 is not thrilling performance by any standard, though whether it matters terribly is another question. Donaldson, which of couse is a filtration company that likes to see clean fluids, recommends 18/16/13 for "heavy gear/engine oils". This would appear to support Amsoil's 'rock catcher' characterisation of the Toyota filter - I suppose it doesn't do much down at the 4μ or 6μ level.

I did switch out for what is ostensibly a "better" Amsoil oil filter, so we shall see going forward whether the improved filtration actually reduces the particle count (& if that results in any sort of improvement to wear metals.)

Wear metals have not materially improved; iron per kilometre declined perhaps 1/8, but at this low level I doubt that it has much to do with anything. We can see trace amounts of copper have appeared, but they're below the universal averages and I doubt 3 ppm is worth losing sleep over. Overall I would opine that the results I see here do not provide any meaningful reason for me to believe that the extra money I spent acquiring my fancy European oil has done anything but lighten my wallet.

The GC proved no more shear-stable than the TGMO, shearing down to a light 30 from a supposed initial viscosity of around 12.2. From this very brief series of samples it would appear that my engine shears down oil by around 20% over the course of an interval.

Given that the oil is both fuel diluted and full of particles, I will be adjusting my drain interval back to the factory 8,000km.

After the next change I expect that I will return to TGMO or some other similar oil.

Last edited by David_Corbett; 01/08/19 05:50 PM.

2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4973444 01/08/19 05:57 PM
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JohnnyJohnson Offline
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The flashpoint isn't looking very good. For a car with that many miles I'd expect to see way low Iron PPM.


2004 Corolla 134866
Out: EDGE EP 5W-30 Bosch 3311 7156 Miles
In: Havoline Pro DS 10w-30 Purolator PureOne 3-14-19 129693
2006 Duramax 76356
Out: T6 5W-40 M1-303
In: T6 5W-40 XG9100 73705 4-22-18
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4973482 01/08/19 06:48 PM
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Patrick0525 Offline
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My iso were 23/17/12 using a Fram Ultra Toyota Venza V6 approx 10K mi.


'14 Toyota Venza 3.5L 88K mi
TGMO 0W-20
PP 0W-20/Fram Ultra filter(spring/summer)


Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4973978 01/09/19 09:12 AM
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OVERKILL Offline
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Originally Posted by David_Corbett


The GC proved no more shear-stable than the TGMO, shearing down to a light 30 from a supposed initial viscosity of around 12.2. From this very brief series of samples it would appear that my engine shears down oil by around 20% over the course of an interval.

Given that the oil is both fuel diluted and full of particles, I will be adjusting my drain interval back to the factory 8,000km.

After the next change I expect that I will return to TGMO or some other similar oil.


Given the precipitous drop in flashpoint, I'd ascribe most of the viscosity loss to the fuel. If this was Blackstone, their method for calculating fuel dilution is WAAAAY off, so don't rely on that figure.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4974091 01/09/19 11:19 AM
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Wildcard Offline
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who did the analysis? im wanting to move away from blackstone starting on my next analysis. im still about 4000km away from ending my pennzoil ultra run.


2002 acura 3.5RL
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #4974191 01/09/19 01:18 PM
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David_Corbett Offline OP
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Yes, it was Blackstone Labs - I just present a formatted list rather than e.g. an image to allow for easier search, reduce the amount of data that is required, and ensure no future problems with image hosts.

Agreed, a flashpoint of 360 versus the data sheet which suggests a flashpoint of 410 is a concern, especially combined with the reduction in kinematic viscosity. Troubling stuff. Definitely not going to do long OCIs and may even push them up past the factory schedule. Even if the oil isn't worn out, it is a problem if it is dirty and full of gas!


2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD "Technology +"
Oil: Castrol EDGE 0W-30 ACEA A3/B4 "German Castrol"
Oil filter: Toyota 04152-YZZA5
Air filter: Toyota 17801-31170
Re: TGMO 0W20, 8100km/5mo, 2013 Lexus GS350AWD 118K KM [Re: David_Corbett] #5006383 02/10/19 01:54 AM
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Pinoak Offline
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Iron is a little elevated in both.

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