Oz Planstic Bag Bans - not so green.

[Shannow]

From Silk's thread on cotton bags...

Originally Posted By: Shannow
My "single use" bags brought the groceries home.
Then packed my lunch for work

Then either collected the use kitty litter; or
Lined the kitchen bin/tidy to gather the junk before going into the bin.

"single use"...used three times.

Now I need to buy bags to put the kitty litter in, or line the kitchen tidy.


https://www.news.com.au/technology/envir...15bcb71e20c708f

Quote:
A 2009 report produced for Woolworths by researchers at RMIT calculated the environmental impact of single use carrier bags versus their reusable counterparts.
The classic supermarket bag, the type being banned, is made from high density polyethylene (HDPE). Compared to other bags it’s not that great environmentally — but it certainly doesn’t have the worst impact.
On measures such as its contribution to global warming and water usage, it actually scores well. In landfill they compress and so take up very little space. But it falls down on energy consumption and the effect on marine life.
Other research has said light density polyethylene (LDPE) bags, the thicker type available for a few cents at the supermarket, are generally worse than their thinner counterparts.
So called “green bags” made from polypropylene (PP), use fewer materials but produce a lot of waste, but overall they are better than HDPE bags.



Quote:
However, “single-use” plastic bags aren’t really used once at all.
“Most shopping bags are used twice because people take them home and use them as rubbish bags or for picking up dog poop and that further reduces their environmental impact,” said Dr Thornton.
Every time an HDPE bag is reused, the environmental hurdle other bags have to jump over to better them increases. Paper bags, which aren’t all that strong, have to be used six times; green bags 20+ times and a cotton bag more than 260 times.
If you use a plastic bag to carry your shopping home, take your lunch to work and then pick up your pet’s waste then, according to Woolies figures at least, you might have to use your green bag hundreds of times for it to be truly green in comparison.

 

[raytseng]

yea but a sea turtle isnt going to die because their stomach is filled with paper or cotton bags.
the primary argument is less about the energy used aspect, its more about the disposal and the discarded bags getting out of the loop.

 

[PimTac]

So the problem is incidental disposal and not the bags themselves?

Since bags are being banned in certain localities around us, we buy plastic garbage bags instead of repurposing the bags from the stores. Nothing has been accomplished.


The real issue is in countries around the world where plastics and other disposables are thrown away willy nilly. Rivers are full of trash. I saw it a lot during my travels. Rainy seasons flood the rivers and drainages and all the trash flows out to sea.

 

[JLTD]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
yea but a sea turtle isnt going to die because their stomach is filled with paper or cotton bags.
the primary argument is less about the energy used aspect, its more about the disposal and the discarded bags getting out of the loop.



Correct! And a reused plastic bag...STILL ends up in the ecosystem, it's just delayed slightly for each reuse....the key here is to stop using them up front, quit with the idiotic arguments about which bag costs the least water to produce and see the end result...plastic is killing the oceans.

 

[raytseng]

the other aspect was that bags were traditionally free (or paid for by the merchant) , so they were treated as garbage because humans are humans and gsrbage disposal is also free.

Even by putting a token value on it by making people pay per bag or buying their own bag changes peoples behavior.

people will hang on to pennies or nickels for the sake that they are money, they do not just throw change into the garbage.

Economically recyclables with deposit have the same value but people feel fine theowing those into the garbage.

The other aspect is to make the true cost of trash more evident. Take away all the public free trash cans and have people hand their trash to the disposal people eye to eye and pay by volume (recycling still is free and encouraged) . build in some public aspect of it and shame and people will reduce their trash.

 

[dishdude]

I hate plastic bags, they're everywhere! I can't tell you how many I run over on the freeway or hit my car.

 

[raytseng]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
So the problem is incidental disposal and not the bags themselves?

Since bags are being banned in certain localities around us, we buy plastic garbage bags instead of repurposing the bags from the stores. Nothing has been accomplished.


The real issue is in countries around the world where plastics and other disposables are thrown away willy nilly. Rivers are full of trash. I saw it a lot during my travels. Rainy seasons flood the rivers and drainages and all the trash flows out to sea.


If you are buying bags. i doubt you are using them as willy nilly as when they just piled up and given to you for free.
I see ppl checking out when given the choice of buying a bag even for the token amount 5cents, a lot of decliners and they carry their item out in their arms. Its not about thr money as 1 coupon or shopping frugally could pay for 25bags and oobodyis hurting for 5cents

It might be baby step, but still a step forward in my opinion.

 

[ENGINEER60]

vegetable based plastic bags will quickly
decompose in 24 hours in water solving this problem.

 

[wemay]

Good for Oz. I'm glad they're adopting this practice. As currently composed, plastic bags have zero redeeming features when compared to the environmental impact.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: raytseng

If you are buying bags. i doubt you are using them as willy nilly as when they just piled up and given to you for free.
I see ppl checking out when given the choice of buying a bag even for the token amount 5cents, a lot of decliners and they carry their item out in their arms. Its not about thr money as 1 coupon or shopping frugally could pay for 25bags and oobodyis hurting for 5cents

It might be baby step, but still a step forward in my opinion.


This.

Most people will think twice if they don't need the free bags. After all you can only use so many as trash bags.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: ENGINEER60
vegetable based plastic bags will quickly
decompose in 24 hours in water solving this problem.


It will decompose in your refrigerator holding fruits and vegetable. I'm not sure if that's what you want.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: raytseng
yea but a sea turtle isnt going to die because their stomach is filled with paper or cotton bags.
the primary argument is less about the energy used aspect, its more about the disposal and the discarded bags getting out of the loop.


100 miles inland, I guess they've already killed off all our sea turtles.

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted By: PimTac
The real issue is in countries around the world where plastics and other disposables are thrown away willy nilly. Rivers are full of trash. I saw it a lot during my travels. Rainy seasons flood the rivers and drainages and all the trash flows out to sea.


I worked as a school janitor for a time. There was a kindergarten that had a sign clearly posted claiming that they did not use paper towels because they were an "eco class". These are the thinnest individual brown paper towels that will disintegrate readily. Every time I saw this sign, I thought about places like China where they can pollute so much that it attracts foreign investment. Only westerners are held accountable.

 

[JHZR2]

I like getting plastic bags. As mentioned, they often get used more than once. But because they can get used more than once, even using some to collect garbage, diapers, etc., we end up with more than we need.

Not a big deal because most stores collect them to "recycle" them...

But anyone who can't be bothered to do that, and any place that doesn't dispose/recycle properly, can be part of the problem.

The issue isn't the bags. The issue is that some people would poop in their drinking water supply if it was cheap and easy. That just doesn't work anymore with populations as large as they are.

I liked how our local supermarket does it. If you bring back plastic bags, they give you 2c credit each. 5c credit each for thenheavier reusable bags. This way people are inclined to reuse them until they repurpose them or they fail, at which point they can get as many as they want with their next shopping trip.

 

[VNTS]

our stupid town banned the plastic bags, I wrote nasty grams to the local hacks who voted for it.

I asked them out of 100 plastic bags released, how many would reach the water and if they did any testing?

I also asked them why they gave the big grocery stores a "free" profit center, example 20 plastic bags at a nickel which store gets to keep per customer per visit times say 5000 customers per day, or about 1.8 million $ pure profit?? really sad we elect such stupid people.

One numbskull replied it reduced volume of plastic trash going into our landfill??? I replied, how does that work, now people have to buy plastic garbage can liners instead of repurposing the plastic grocery bag?
Then asked him, using his logic if he would propose banning disposable diapers if he was so concerned about plastic filling up our landfill and if he asked the proponents who pushed the bag ban to take that up next? Wont happen because half of em are hypocrits and would have all the women with kids screaming at them.

I have a co=worker who supports the ban but goes the shops at another out of town store to replenish his bag supply for lunch bags, dog poop bags and garbage can liners, another fine hypocrit

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: raytseng
yea but a sea turtle isnt going to die because their stomach is filled with paper or cotton bags.
the primary argument is less about the energy used aspect, its more about the disposal and the discarded bags getting out of the loop.


100 miles inland, I guess they've already killed off all our sea turtles.


Those bags make it to the ocean somehow. Funny how that happens.

 

[Shannow]

Next on the slippery slope is plastic drinking straws.

https://www.smh.com.au/opinion/plastic-straws-bans-wont-save-the-oceans-20180612-h119yz.html

 

[wemay]

Against them too...

 

[sleddriver]

I've long used the plastic grocery bags to dispose of cat litter, used oil filters, wrap up food, cover bowls, for kitchen/bedroom/bath trash, store shoes in suitcase along with dirty clothes, place raw meat scraps in then freeze & hold until trash day. IOW, they were reused many times.

I therefore always saved them. When they over-flowed, I'd stuff many into one and toss or recycle if convienent.

After Austin, Tx instituted their ban "for the environment" I like others was forced to adapt. I began using very sturdy canvas bags which held more, had better handles and never split when over-loaded. These bags would also stand up right; often called 'canvas boat bags'. Surrounding counties where I mostly shop, never went for the 'bag ban', so I still had a ready supply on-hand.

Odd though the emerald city didn't ban plastic produce bags.....

Another related observation was the eco-push to use paper leaf bags during the bi-annual leaf fall. Modern, green lawn/leaf bags I found worthless when needed: far too thin, easily punctured by several twigs, etc. So I went with commercial/industrial construction-cleanup bags which were strong enough to contain rose bush trimmings, yard twigs, rocks, and clay/rock infested 'soil' I needed to remove to make way for better. Sealing such a bag was easily accomplished using mason's twine and a constrictor knot.

Back to the paper leaf bags....what I thought odd were my very eco-conscious 'green' neighbors who thought nothing of siting 30+ bags of leaves at the curb for pick-up...but all in paper bags!

Very odd that. Why? Because they all own lawnmowers. Rather than shred the leaves using it, they (or more likely their yard service) would either hand rake or blow & bag. Trash pickup won't haul but maybe 6/visit/week so they'd be out there quite a while. When one of these bags fall over, the leaves fall out. You have to use two hands to carry which is awkward. "Use tape to seal" was recommended in print however cheap duct-tape won't adhere.

My thinking was why don't more of the eco-crowd COMPOST THEIR LEAVES? I've done it for decades as it just makes sense and the 'soil' here is plain lousy for growing anything. In my composters, I could easily heat up a fresh pile to about 150°F and keep it there long enough to cook weed seeds and completely break down shredded oak leaves. When finished, it would be returned to my backyard grass which grew well in response.

I showed several how I do this and let them grab the hot end of the rebar temp. gauge. Only one followed up. I even showed them that you can compost leaves in sturdy plastic construction bags. The closed environment gets plenty hot (here), stays humid, then can be transported back to the grass and spread, then the same heavy bag reused (because it didn't break down).

Why pay some outfit for $400+ of "boutique" compost (@ > $50/yrd^3) that has to be trucked to your yard when so many leaves fall bi-annually from your own trees?

I've never put out bags of leaves to be picked up. They get shredded and into the compost bins. The past couple of years I've experimented with sharpening the mulching blade, raising the deck, and shredding in place leaving them on the ground. I spread it out, then apply some liquid fertilizer to get the process going and repeat the next week and next week until they've all fallen.

The mower (old Snapper) with a sharp mulching blade will easily convert piles of tough, dry oak leaves into 1/4" pieces that are easily dispersed into an even layer. This works great and is far less work than using the too-small grass catcher, to dump into a trash can, then drag to the composter, then haul up high enough to dump it in.

Perhaps they saw me doing this, realizing how much work it is?

Recycling here is now mandated. I can't have it removed from my trash service even though my trash load is so small. I view it as a 25% tax. Rather smarts when one of my greenie-neighbors proudly declared with a smug-smile that he & the wife decided to stop recycling their garbage because "it's too much work and we're too lazy". WTH? They voted in forced recycling! What about "The Vision"? The big "Green Dream"? The concern for the "environment"? How ironic given their hoards of leaf bags at the curb......

Oh the irony of the righteous green-class......

 

[Brybo86]

I'm definitely not a treehugger but ....
I shop almost exclusively at ALDI and just toss all my groceries in one of their packing boxes, which gets a 2ND use before being recycled.