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Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks #4792265
06/20/18 04:49 PM
06/20/18 04:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
I haven't gone through all of this -- there is lots and lots of info to absorb here!

Two things struck me though:

(1) It turns out that the base stocks, not just the viscosity-index improver (VII), also shear. This is especially true with the advanced synthetic base stocks such as SpectraSyn Ultraô PAO ExxonMobil makes, which have complicated molecules. They shear as much as 50%!

(2) Including an ester base stock in finished oil quadruples the Sequence IVA wear (API valvetrain wear test for gasoline engines)! This is especially scary as most Mobil 1 oils must include an ester base stock since PAO on its own is not stable. Lately they have possibly started using alkylated naphthalene instead of esters in some of their oils. The reason why esters increase wear so much is because they compete for the metal surfaces and they prevent the antiwear/extreme-pressure/friction-modifier additives from adhering to the metal surfaces.

ExxonMobil Chemical advanced synthetic base stocks

Exxon Mobil synthetic lubricant base stocks formulations guide (2017)


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792281
06/20/18 05:04 PM
06/20/18 05:04 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,877
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline

Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,877
Virginia
So you have a very high level concerns concerning ExxonMobil oil??

I'm sure that you know TGMO is made by ExxonMobil as well.

It is not my intention to seem like I am giving you a hard time here. I do not mean this in that way.

Last edited by bbhero; 06/20/18 05:05 PM.

Nissan Altima 3.5 Coupe
Mobil Super 5w30 Wix 57356
"Treat your family like your friends and treat your friends like your family."
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: bbhero] #4792290
06/20/18 05:09 PM
06/20/18 05:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: bbhero
So you have a very high level concerns concerning ExxonMobil oil??

I'm sure that you know TGMO is made by ExxonMobil as well.

It is not my intention to seem like I am giving you a hard time here. I do not mean this in that way.

Yes, but TGMO is Group III -- no PAO and possibly wear-inducing ester.

I did use M1 0W-40 SN recently and a lot of Mobil Delvac Super 1300 15W-40 CJ-4/SM in the past though.

I've corrected the link for the first document above.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792294
06/20/18 05:16 PM
06/20/18 05:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 322
Michigan
researcher Offline
researcher  Offline

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 322
Michigan
WOW! I just got done responding to Jaha24k's post about TGMO oil.. and here I found this next post talking about WHY Mobil is shearing down!

I have seen this myself. Look up my UOA on my scion tc! That is stored, and it is thinning/shearing on it's own! The engine isn't even being used, just sitting!

EDIT: the low wear numbers on the tC is because it wasn't being used, just stored. On the civic, the columns (on my UOA's) that show titanium are the TGMO usage intervals. Yes the wear is nothing bad, but I still didn't like how quickly it sheared.

EDIT2: I had been using TGMO Conventional..

Hey if the Mobil fans want to debate it go ahead but I've already had first hand experience with what the offerings from Mobil are up to. I don't care for it. Yes I know that TGMO (toyota) has Mobil make their brand of oil, and to their own recipe, but the base stocks are definitely not as good as they used to be.

This post.. THANKS Gokhan! It makes complete sense of what I experienced!

Last edited by researcher; 06/20/18 05:21 PM.
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792297
06/20/18 05:23 PM
06/20/18 05:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 493
Alberta
tcp71 Offline
tcp71  Offline

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 493
Alberta
Does redline oil, with their use of Esters, cause more wear than other oils? Evidence?


2016 F150 Eco: Edge 0w40
2005 Sienna 3.3: mobil 0w40 (varies)
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792298
06/20/18 05:24 PM
06/20/18 05:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
(2) Including an ester base stock in finished oil quadruples the Sequence IVA wear (API valvetrain wear test for gasoline engines)! This is especially scary as most Mobil 1 oils must include an ester base stock since PAO on its own is not stable. Lately they have possibly started using alkylated naphthalene instead of esters in some of their oils. The reason why esters increase wear so much is because they compete for the metal surfaces and they prevent the antiwear/extreme-pressure/friction-modifier additives from adhering to the metal surfaces.

I see that in their formulation guide (second document), they are indicating only 2% ester in their PAO formulations. In their first document where they report a quadrupling of the Sequence IVA wear, they used 10% ester. My guess is that in most oils Mobil 1 sells, the ester concentration is around 2% and doesn't cause a significant increase in Sequence IVA wear as a result.

Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then.

I wish the Sequence IVA wars would start again and we would know which oil actually causes less wear. smile

http://www.jobbersworld.com/QSletter.htm

http://www.jobbersworld.com/March%2020,%202009.htm


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792300
06/20/18 05:27 PM
06/20/18 05:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,305
Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,305
Canyon County Idaho
O.K.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792316
06/20/18 05:48 PM
06/20/18 05:48 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 318
So. Calif.
turnbowm Offline
turnbowm  Offline

Joined: May 2015
Posts: 318
So. Calif.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then...

Makes me all the more confident with my choice of PP with the GTL basestock.


2015 Kia Optima EX 2.4L GDI
2015 Chevy Volt
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: turnbowm] #4792327
06/20/18 06:06 PM
06/20/18 06:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,180
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 39,180
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then...

Makes me all the more confident with my choice of PP with the GTL basestock.


If PAO shears, I'm sure GTL does too.


2019 RAM 1500 Sport - Mobil 1 EP 0w-20, FRAM Ultra
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT - Ravenol SSL 0w-40, FRAM Ultra
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792340
06/20/18 06:27 PM
06/20/18 06:27 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 627
Indiana
njohnson Offline
njohnson  Offline

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 627
Indiana
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
(2) Including an ester base stock in finished oil quadruples the Sequence IVA wear (API valvetrain wear test for gasoline engines)! This is especially scary as most Mobil 1 oils must include an ester base stock since PAO on its own is not stable. Lately they have possibly started using alkylated naphthalene instead of esters in some of their oils. The reason why esters increase wear so much is because they compete for the metal surfaces and they prevent the antiwear/extreme-pressure/friction-modifier additives from adhering to the metal surfaces.

I see that in their formulation guide (second document), they are indicating only 2% ester in their PAO formulations. In their first document where they report a quadrupling of the Sequence IVA wear, they used 10% ester. My guess is that in most oils Mobil 1 sells, the ester concentration is around 2% and doesn't cause a significant increase in Sequence IVA wear as a result.

Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then.

I wish the Sequence IVA wars would start again and we would know which oil actually causes less wear. smile

http://www.jobbersworld.com/QSletter.htm

http://www.jobbersworld.com/March%2020,%202009.htm


Mobil could have had an issue with their SM formula, but, I don't think that still holds true today. They say the Mobil 1 high mileage provides unsurpassed wear protection in the API sequence IVA.

https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1/mobil-1-high-mileage

Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: turnbowm] #4792371
06/20/18 07:06 PM
06/20/18 07:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,305
Canyon County Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 13,305
Canyon County Idaho
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then...

Makes me all the more confident with my choice of PP with the GTL basestock.
It doesn't take much does it.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: OVERKILL] #4792382
06/20/18 07:12 PM
06/20/18 07:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline OP
Gokhan  Offline OP

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,028
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
...Clearly some time ago, during the API SM days, Mobil 1 was having a problem with Sequence IVA when Castrol reported their test results. This was also verified by many consumer UOA's such as on BITOG that showed very high iron numbers (excessive valvetrain wear). That could have been due to excessive use of esters in their formulations back then. This problem has been addressed and corrected by Mobil 1 since then...

Makes me all the more confident with my choice of PP with the GTL basestock.

If PAO shears, I'm sure GTL does too.

My understanding is that these (SpectraSyn Ultraô PAO) are special very high-viscosity base stocks used in machining applications (neat oil). I doubt the PAO base stocks used in motor oil shear more than a small fraction of a percent, which would be negligible.

Yes, I think esters are a concern but I'm sure Mobil 1 is keeping their concentration at a minimum to avoid any issues with surface competition with the additives.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 273,000 M
Mobil 1 Extended Performance 0W-20 SN PLUS (PAO-based)
Fram Ultra XG3600 filter (full synthetic), 90430-12031 drain gasket (rubber on aluminum)
Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792398
06/20/18 07:22 PM
06/20/18 07:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,179
Fredericksburg, VA
JAG Offline
JAG  Offline

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,179
Fredericksburg, VA
That document is XOM marketing material, so it is designed to persuade the audience into making certain purchase decisions. Iím not saying that it is full of bad or incorrect data. Iím saying that the data shown are cherry-picked to convey the message they want the audience to believe. If they want to show how amazing alkylated napthalene is, they find a particular ester used at a particular concentration along with a particular rest of the formulation in a particular test in which it caused the oil to allow a lot more wear than did the formulation with alkylated napthalene.

Mobil was using alkylated napthalene in Mobil 1 back when they sold the Tri-Synthetic formulation. It had PAO, AN, and ester. I do not know if that was the first M1 formulation that used AN.

The large and very large PAO molecules can be sheared in that severe test largely because they are that large. It comes with the territory of being that large. Other molecular attributes also effect shear stability, as well, but molecular size is a very strong factor in shear stability.

So, donít extrapolate too far beyond the particular test data that are being shown in that document.

Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: Gokhan] #4792401
06/20/18 07:23 PM
06/20/18 07:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,127
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,127
Illinois
In my 40 years of using M1 oils I have never had an engine show any sign of wear.


2007 Ford Fusion 239,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 67K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Latest info on ExxonMobil synthetic base stocks [Re: njohnson] #4792411
06/20/18 07:34 PM
06/20/18 07:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,981
Sequim, WA
edhackett Online content
edhackett  Online Content

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,981
Sequim, WA
Originally Posted By: njohnson

Mobil could have had an issue with their SM formula, but, I don't think that still holds true today. They say the Mobil 1 high mileage provides unsurpassed wear protection in the API sequence IVA.


Now it's the Volvo T-13 oxidation test that Delvac 1300 Super 15w-40 is failing. That test is required to meet CK-4 and other manufacturers certifications.

Delvac failing volvo T-13

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4788016/Shell_vs_Delvac#Post4788016

Ed


Never attribute to engineers that into which politicians, lawyers, accountants, and marketeers have poked their fingers.
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