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Any news on what happened to this plane? #4789650
06/18/18 02:36 AM
06/18/18 02:36 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 93
wa
Exhaustgases Offline OP
Exhaustgases  Offline OP
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 93
wa
http://fox8.com/2017/05/17/final-moments-of-pilot-in-lake-erie-plane-crash-revealed-i-team/
Also has anyone ever read the Great Lakes Triangle by Jay Gourly <--- spelling ?

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4789748
06/18/18 07:48 AM
06/18/18 07:48 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 459
Jupiter, FL
thescreensavers Offline
thescreensavers  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 459
Jupiter, FL
I found this on the NTSB site, https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161230X91745&key=1

I also found this site has lots of details http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/cessna-525c-citation-cj4-n614sb.html

Quick search couldn't find a reason why, the NTSB identification number will lead you to the report if it gets published.

Last edited by thescreensavers; 06/18/18 07:50 AM.

2017 Camaro SS 1LE (Motul 8100 X-clean 5W40)
1997 Jeep XJ 4x4 (15W40 HDEO Maxlife)
Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4789819
06/18/18 09:07 AM
06/18/18 09:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,756
Michigan
Greggy_D Offline
Greggy_D  Offline
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,756
Michigan
CEO bought more jet than he could handle. Fatigue, weather, visibility, and get-home-itis all came into play.


Greggy D.

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4789877
06/18/18 10:08 AM
06/18/18 10:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Another rich guy thinks he’s a pilot....and bites off more than he can chew.

Happens with depressing regularity.

You may be legal, and think you’re OK to fly over water at night.

But it’s not VFR. It’s frackin’ dark. With no horizon


32 Packard 15W40
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Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14] #4789885
06/18/18 10:13 AM
06/18/18 10:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,008
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,008
Texas
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: 4WD] #4789899
06/18/18 10:23 AM
06/18/18 10:23 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 453
Connecticut
Sam_Julier Offline
Sam_Julier  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 453
Connecticut
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …


Yup. Over Long Island Sound in the summer. No horizon. What a shame.


2005 Highlander 3.3L PC Duron 0W30, 47k
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1993 Volvo 244 Delo 10W30, 152k

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Sam_Julier] #4789918
06/18/18 10:43 AM
06/18/18 10:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,340
Toronna
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,340
Toronna
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …


Yup. Over Long Island Sound in the summer. No horizon. What a shame.


Aircraft are rich man's hotrods.

If you owned a plane but had someone fly you around, it would be difficult to resist. Free as a bird with multiple engines, who could resist that?


03 Jetta AWP/09A 200k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4789927
06/18/18 11:01 AM
06/18/18 11:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 904
MA
AandPDan Offline
AandPDan  Offline
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 904
MA
Spatial disorientation.

He took off at night and made a 90 degree turn. The ears can really play tricks on you.

You need to use and trust those instruments.

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: AandPDan] #4790040
06/18/18 01:29 PM
06/18/18 01:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: AandPDan
Spatial disorientation.

He took off at night and made a 90 degree turn. The ears can really play tricks on you.

You need to use and trust those instruments.


True instrument flying requires training and discipline.

Both tend to be in rather short supply when talking about wealthy owner operators...

What’s not in short supply: ego.

No idea of their limitations. After all, they’re successful people, so they think they can do anything...

Flying an airplane is easy, right?


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
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Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4790080
06/18/18 02:36 PM
06/18/18 02:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 435
TN USA
Crispysea Offline
Crispysea  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 435
TN USA
Looks as if the plane possibly iced over, too. I doubt he had experience with icing, among other things.

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases] #4790118
06/18/18 03:32 PM
06/18/18 03:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,522
The Motor City
Kestas Offline
Kestas  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,522
The Motor City
It was interesting to read through all the comments in the kathrynsreport link. I think I'll wait for the NTSB report.

If I was a pilot, I'd've been scared witless taking off as he did. I agree, on the surface it looks like a rich man's arrogance.

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Crispysea] #4790199
06/18/18 04:47 PM
06/18/18 04:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: Crispysea
Looks as if the plane possibly iced over, too. I doubt he had experience with icing, among other things.


Ostensibly, all those things (instrument, icing, etc.) would be covered in his annual training, which was completed weeks before the accident.

However, the owner was single pilot at the time, and had very little time in type.

Neither is good...particularly when dealing with complex problems like high winds, low visibility, pure IFR, potential icing, and hand-flying. There are many ways that human physiology falls short in an aviation environment. The most common is a graveyard spiral, in which your inner ear didn't sense the initial roll, and now you feel as though you've rolled the opposite direction, so, you roll more in the direction in which you had already rolled, tightening up the turn, and entering a steep spiral, and as you lose altitude, you pull back harder, increasing both the turn rate and illusion...

Only slightly less common is a somatogravic illusion - in which you perceive acceleration/deceleration as pitch up/down respectively. So, even though the airplane didn't pitch, you respond to the acceleration/deceleration as though it did, pulling up in response to a power reduction, and thereby stalling the airplane, or pushing forward on a power increase, and fly right into the water.

Both have happened before, many, many times, and in similar conditions. A clear horizon on a good day counters all of these inner-ear illusions with real-world cues that allows your brain to become properly oriented.

But on a dark night, over the water, even if you're clear of clouds, there is no horizon. Those inner-ear illusions are hard to overcome. Your primal brain is screaming at you that you're turning, or climbing, or descending, when, in fact, you're not.

Rigorous discipline on the instruments, and lots of practice flying them, is the only counter.

Most low-time, instrument rated pilots simply lack both the discipline and the practice to avoid those traps.

JFK Jr. is a classic example. He was flying over water, using visual flight rules. But, at night, away from land, there is no horizon. and visual flight rules, while legal, are deadly.

I think this guy was the same: in a more complex airplane, turning, at night, over the water, as he leveled off in a high-performance airplane. His eyes and his inner ear were in conflict.

His instincts won.


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14] #4790333
06/18/18 06:50 PM
06/18/18 06:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,022
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,022
OH
No low time PPL belongs in a single pilot jet, as has been proven time and again.
There is no substitute for regular IFR flying if a pilot is to remain proficient.
If the accident pilot filed a VFR flight plan in the dark over water conditions described, then he was acting with a lack of the judgment that any good pilot must use.
A good pilot being one who doesn't destroy his machine and kill himself in the process, of course.
This guy set himself up for failure.
You see this sort of thing fairly often in bright guys who figure that if all those ATPs can do it, then a smart guy like him should have no problem.
These guys neglect to reflect that all of those ATPs fly through real IFR on a regular basis in planes a lot more demanding than a Cessna Citation and that they're also very bright guys.


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Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14] #4796016
06/24/18 07:33 AM
06/24/18 07:33 AM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
billt460 Offline
billt460  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,142
Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Ostensibly, all those things (instrument, icing, etc.) would be covered in his annual training, which was completed weeks before the accident.

However, the owner was single pilot at the time, and had very little time in type.

Neither is good...particularly when dealing with complex problems like high winds, low visibility, pure IFR, potential icing, and hand-flying. There are many ways that human physiology falls short in an aviation environment. The most common is a graveyard spiral, in which your inner ear didn't sense the initial roll, and now you feel as though you've rolled the opposite direction, so, you roll more in the direction in which you had already rolled, tightening up the turn, and entering a steep spiral, and as you lose altitude, you pull back harder, increasing both the turn rate and illusion...

Only slightly less common is a somatogravic illusion - in which you perceive acceleration/deceleration as pitch up/down respectively. So, even though the airplane didn't pitch, you respond to the acceleration/deceleration as though it did, pulling up in response to a power reduction, and thereby stalling the airplane, or pushing forward on a power increase, and fly right into the water.

Both have happened before, many, many times, and in similar conditions. A clear horizon on a good day counters all of these inner-ear illusions with real-world cues that allows your brain to become properly oriented.

But on a dark night, over the water, even if you're clear of clouds, there is no horizon. Those inner-ear illusions are hard to overcome. Your primal brain is screaming at you that you're turning, or climbing, or descending, when, in fact, you're not.

Rigorous discipline on the instruments, and lots of practice flying them, is the only counter.

Most low-time, instrument rated pilots simply lack both the discipline and the practice to avoid those traps.

JFK Jr. is a classic example. He was flying over water, using visual flight rules. But, at night, away from land, there is no horizon. and visual flight rules, while legal, are deadly.

I think this guy was the same: in a more complex airplane, turning, at night, over the water, as he leveled off in a high-performance airplane. His eyes and his inner ear were in conflict.

His instincts won.


All of that makes absolute perfect sense. But I've never understood how hard can it be for a pilot, any pilot, to look at an artificial horizon.... And believe it?

Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: billt460] #4796021
06/24/18 07:39 AM
06/24/18 07:39 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
Astro14 Offline
Astro14  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,813
Virginia Beach
It's hard to believe your eyes, particularly when your eyes see just a small instrument, when your vestibular input is telling your brain something completely different.

Ever see folks try this: put their forehead on a bat held vertically, and spin around the bat?

When they stand up - they fall over immediately! I tried this once, in college, and I jumped to the side to escape the floor that was rising up at me...except that the floor was steady, and what my eyes saw was real... But the sloshing fluid in my inner ear (and those of my team-mates) completely overpowered my brain and I believed that the gym floor was moving up at me.

Flight induces similar accelerations that are picked up by the inner ear. Those inputs become overwhelming.

You can train a pilot to ignore what his body is telling him, but it does take training, and lots of it, because fundamentally, people are wired to accept the inner ear input. It is hard to train out biology.


32 Packard 15W40
02 Volvo V70 T5 0W40 M1
02 Volvo V70 XC 0W40 Edge
05 MB S600 0W40 M1
16 Tundra 1794 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra
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