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#4789650 - 06/18/18 02:36 AM Any news on what happened to this plane?
Exhaustgases Offline


Registered: 12/18/11
Posts: 87
Loc: wa
http://fox8.com/2017/05/17/final-moments-of-pilot-in-lake-erie-plane-crash-revealed-i-team/
Also has anyone ever read the Great Lakes Triangle by Jay Gourly <--- spelling ?

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#4789748 - 06/18/18 07:48 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
thescreensavers Offline


Registered: 12/21/09
Posts: 429
Loc: Jupiter, FL
I found this on the NTSB site, https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20161230X91745&key=1

I also found this site has lots of details http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/12/cessna-525c-citation-cj4-n614sb.html

Quick search couldn't find a reason why, the NTSB identification number will lead you to the report if it gets published.


Edited by thescreensavers (06/18/18 07:50 AM)
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#4789819 - 06/18/18 09:07 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
Greggy_D Offline


Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 1687
Loc: Michigan
CEO bought more jet than he could handle. Fatigue, weather, visibility, and get-home-itis all came into play.
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#4789877 - 06/18/18 10:08 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8606
Loc: Virginia Beach
Another rich guy thinks he’s a pilot....and bites off more than he can chew.

Happens with depressing regularity.

You may be legal, and think you’re OK to fly over water at night.

But it’s not VFR. It’s frackin’ dark. With no horizon
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#4789885 - 06/18/18 10:13 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6532
Loc: Texas
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …

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#4789899 - 06/18/18 10:23 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: 4WD]
Sam_Julier Offline


Registered: 05/22/12
Posts: 439
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …


Yup. Over Long Island Sound in the summer. No horizon. What a shame.
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#4789918 - 06/18/18 10:43 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Sam_Julier]
maxdustington Offline


Registered: 01/21/17
Posts: 868
Loc: Toronna
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Reminds me of JFK Jr … ended a bright future trying to be a pilot …


Yup. Over Long Island Sound in the summer. No horizon. What a shame.


Aircraft are rich man's hotrods.

If you owned a plane but had someone fly you around, it would be difficult to resist. Free as a bird with multiple engines, who could resist that?
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#4789927 - 06/18/18 11:01 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
AandPDan Offline


Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 900
Loc: MA
Spatial disorientation.

He took off at night and made a 90 degree turn. The ears can really play tricks on you.

You need to use and trust those instruments.

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#4790040 - 06/18/18 01:29 PM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: AandPDan]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8606
Loc: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: AandPDan
Spatial disorientation.

He took off at night and made a 90 degree turn. The ears can really play tricks on you.

You need to use and trust those instruments.


True instrument flying requires training and discipline.

Both tend to be in rather short supply when talking about wealthy owner operators...

What’s not in short supply: ego.

No idea of their limitations. After all, they’re successful people, so they think they can do anything...

Flying an airplane is easy, right?
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#4790080 - 06/18/18 02:36 PM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
Crispysea Offline


Registered: 04/14/17
Posts: 418
Loc: TN USA
Looks as if the plane possibly iced over, too. I doubt he had experience with icing, among other things.

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#4790118 - 06/18/18 03:32 PM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Exhaustgases]
Kestas Offline



Registered: 06/04/02
Posts: 12392
Loc: The Motor City
It was interesting to read through all the comments in the kathrynsreport link. I think I'll wait for the NTSB report.

If I was a pilot, I'd've been scared witless taking off as he did. I agree, on the surface it looks like a rich man's arrogance.

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#4790199 - 06/18/18 04:47 PM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Crispysea]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8606
Loc: Virginia Beach
Originally Posted By: Crispysea
Looks as if the plane possibly iced over, too. I doubt he had experience with icing, among other things.


Ostensibly, all those things (instrument, icing, etc.) would be covered in his annual training, which was completed weeks before the accident.

However, the owner was single pilot at the time, and had very little time in type.

Neither is good...particularly when dealing with complex problems like high winds, low visibility, pure IFR, potential icing, and hand-flying. There are many ways that human physiology falls short in an aviation environment. The most common is a graveyard spiral, in which your inner ear didn't sense the initial roll, and now you feel as though you've rolled the opposite direction, so, you roll more in the direction in which you had already rolled, tightening up the turn, and entering a steep spiral, and as you lose altitude, you pull back harder, increasing both the turn rate and illusion...

Only slightly less common is a somatogravic illusion - in which you perceive acceleration/deceleration as pitch up/down respectively. So, even though the airplane didn't pitch, you respond to the acceleration/deceleration as though it did, pulling up in response to a power reduction, and thereby stalling the airplane, or pushing forward on a power increase, and fly right into the water.

Both have happened before, many, many times, and in similar conditions. A clear horizon on a good day counters all of these inner-ear illusions with real-world cues that allows your brain to become properly oriented.

But on a dark night, over the water, even if you're clear of clouds, there is no horizon. Those inner-ear illusions are hard to overcome. Your primal brain is screaming at you that you're turning, or climbing, or descending, when, in fact, you're not.

Rigorous discipline on the instruments, and lots of practice flying them, is the only counter.

Most low-time, instrument rated pilots simply lack both the discipline and the practice to avoid those traps.

JFK Jr. is a classic example. He was flying over water, using visual flight rules. But, at night, away from land, there is no horizon. and visual flight rules, while legal, are deadly.

I think this guy was the same: in a more complex airplane, turning, at night, over the water, as he leveled off in a high-performance airplane. His eyes and his inner ear were in conflict.

His instincts won.
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#4790333 - 06/18/18 06:50 PM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15838
Loc: OH
No low time PPL belongs in a single pilot jet, as has been proven time and again.
There is no substitute for regular IFR flying if a pilot is to remain proficient.
If the accident pilot filed a VFR flight plan in the dark over water conditions described, then he was acting with a lack of the judgment that any good pilot must use.
A good pilot being one who doesn't destroy his machine and kill himself in the process, of course.
This guy set himself up for failure.
You see this sort of thing fairly often in bright guys who figure that if all those ATPs can do it, then a smart guy like him should have no problem.
These guys neglect to reflect that all of those ATPs fly through real IFR on a regular basis in planes a lot more demanding than a Cessna Citation and that they're also very bright guys.
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#4796016 - 06/24/18 07:33 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: Astro14]
billt460 Offline


Registered: 03/30/15
Posts: 4549
Loc: Glendale, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Ostensibly, all those things (instrument, icing, etc.) would be covered in his annual training, which was completed weeks before the accident.

However, the owner was single pilot at the time, and had very little time in type.

Neither is good...particularly when dealing with complex problems like high winds, low visibility, pure IFR, potential icing, and hand-flying. There are many ways that human physiology falls short in an aviation environment. The most common is a graveyard spiral, in which your inner ear didn't sense the initial roll, and now you feel as though you've rolled the opposite direction, so, you roll more in the direction in which you had already rolled, tightening up the turn, and entering a steep spiral, and as you lose altitude, you pull back harder, increasing both the turn rate and illusion...

Only slightly less common is a somatogravic illusion - in which you perceive acceleration/deceleration as pitch up/down respectively. So, even though the airplane didn't pitch, you respond to the acceleration/deceleration as though it did, pulling up in response to a power reduction, and thereby stalling the airplane, or pushing forward on a power increase, and fly right into the water.

Both have happened before, many, many times, and in similar conditions. A clear horizon on a good day counters all of these inner-ear illusions with real-world cues that allows your brain to become properly oriented.

But on a dark night, over the water, even if you're clear of clouds, there is no horizon. Those inner-ear illusions are hard to overcome. Your primal brain is screaming at you that you're turning, or climbing, or descending, when, in fact, you're not.

Rigorous discipline on the instruments, and lots of practice flying them, is the only counter.

Most low-time, instrument rated pilots simply lack both the discipline and the practice to avoid those traps.

JFK Jr. is a classic example. He was flying over water, using visual flight rules. But, at night, away from land, there is no horizon. and visual flight rules, while legal, are deadly.

I think this guy was the same: in a more complex airplane, turning, at night, over the water, as he leveled off in a high-performance airplane. His eyes and his inner ear were in conflict.

His instincts won.


All of that makes absolute perfect sense. But I've never understood how hard can it be for a pilot, any pilot, to look at an artificial horizon.... And believe it?

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#4796021 - 06/24/18 07:39 AM Re: Any news on what happened to this plane? [Re: billt460]
Astro14 Offline


Registered: 10/10/10
Posts: 8606
Loc: Virginia Beach
It's hard to believe your eyes, particularly when your eyes see just a small instrument, when your vestibular input is telling your brain something completely different.

Ever see folks try this: put their forehead on a bat held vertically, and spin around the bat?

When they stand up - they fall over immediately! I tried this once, in college, and I jumped to the side to escape the floor that was rising up at me...except that the floor was steady, and what my eyes saw was real... But the sloshing fluid in my inner ear (and those of my team-mates) completely overpowered my brain and I believed that the gym floor was moving up at me.

Flight induces similar accelerations that are picked up by the inner ear. Those inputs become overwhelming.

You can train a pilot to ignore what his body is telling him, but it does take training, and lots of it, because fundamentally, people are wired to accept the inner ear input. It is hard to train out biology.
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