Subaru Genuine 0w20 & Noack information

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Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: mpersell
I've got a 2017 Tundra and it calls for 0w20. I run the SS Amsoil 0w20 and I would much rather run the 5w20. Toyota is adamant about 0w20 though. Even to the point of saying if you can't find 0w20, you can run 5w20 for one oil change.
You just violated your engine warranty. SS Amsoil is not API certified, nor is it SN. Toyota could deny coverage. Not saying they neccesarily would, maybe they wouldn't check or don't care or are in a good mood that day. Just so you know.

I dare you to show that post to Pablo.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Pilot - Have you seen an owner’s manual or just looked at the oil cap? I’m curious if the language in the owner’s manual will be the same as other current models.


Yes the manual’s public now on the site. Basically it’s 0w20, but if you need to top off you can use other viscosity if you can’t find 0w20.

Saw a couple videos on YouTube that describe why Noack is important for DI. Yes EGR is the main issue but if the oil doesn’t evaporate you’ve got a better oil.
 
Originally Posted By: pilot1226
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Pilot - Have you seen an owner’s manual or just looked at the oil cap? I’m curious if the language in the owner’s manual will be the same as other current models.


Yes the manual’s public now on the site. Basically it’s 0w20, but if you need to top off you can use other viscosity if you can’t find 0w20.

Saw a couple videos on YouTube that describe why Noack is important for DI. Yes EGR is the main issue but if the oil doesn’t evaporate you’ve got a better oil.

Thanks. Language is the same.

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M1900A_STIS.pdf

Page 446:

Quote:
NOTE
Engine oil viscosity (thickness) affects fuel economy. Oils of lower viscosity provide better fuel economy. However, in hot weather, oil of higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine.


And 483:

Quote:
0W-20 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

*: If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available, 5W-30 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 0W-20 synthetic oil at the next oil change.


As per the other manuals, they do not clearly define what is considered "hot temps" or "thicker viscosity". Also, only 0W-20 is noted on the viscosity chart.

Even if there are conditions/applications where a 5W-30 would be a better fit, the numbers are probably small compared to paying CAFE fines or giving up CAFE credits when the entire Subaru fleet is considered. Try to get SoA to provide clarity on the hot temps and thicker viscosity and they will tell you to use 0W-20. In stock form, the 2.0 DIT's have been showing low uoa wear metals on very short intervals despite having fuel dilution of 2-5%.

If your concern is more volatility and IVD over viscosity, I really wouldn't sweat it. Although, if you intend to keep it beyond the Powertrain Warranty, I would definitely consider an extended warranty from Subaru and resist any mods (e.g. Cobb Stage I). Especially on a first year turbo. Being a beta tester for Subaru definitely affected my wallet. You should look up Dyson Analysis if you intend to get into uoa's. His guidance would be very valuable. Or just do oil changes every 3,000 miles and save money on uoa's.
 
Originally Posted By: mpersell
According to the 2018 data sheets it is API Certified and SN.
They fooled you. That is their goal. They say "can be used for", which is not the same as "this oil is certified officially". So it's Amsoil saying their oil is good enough, period.

Originally Posted By: Garak
I dare you to show that post to Pablo.
Why? Pablo knows Signature Series oil is not SN or API. The question is whether Subaru or Toyota or any automaker would deny warranty coverage in the event of an engine failure because the owner did not follow the Owner's Manual instructions to use an actual SN API oil. Besides, one could avoid the SS Amsoil and just use the lesser XL or OE Amsoil brews if the Owner's Manual requires an SN oil (note no dexos1 though).
 
I think the FA24 has a much less aggressive tune and lower boost pressure than the FA20 - the specific power is substantially lower. I assume they wanted the whole system to be less stressed due to the different market segment, as well as the tow rating requirements than an Ascent has that a WRX doesn't.

While I would rather have a 3.0L or 3.6L NA 6-cylinder boxer than a 2.4L turbo 4-cylinder boxer if I were going to be towing regularly, I can understand that fuel economy requirements have forced their hand here. Hopefully the beefed-up CVT they developed for this behemoth can hold up long-term. Are they planning on mating a transmission cooler to it?
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Why? Pablo knows Signature Series oil is not SN or API. The question is whether Subaru or Toyota or any automaker would deny warranty coverage in the event of an engine failure because the owner did not follow the Owner's Manual instructions to use an actual SN API oil. Besides, one could avoid the SS Amsoil and just use the lesser XL or OE Amsoil brews if the Owner's Manual requires an SN oil (note no dexos1 though).

An engine failure, where such failure was called by oil. If an engine is spitting out spark plugs, for instance, I don't think an OEM is going to have much of a leg to stand on to deny warranty based upon SN 0w-20 versus SS 0w-20.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: pilot1226
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Pilot - Have you seen an owner’s manual or just looked at the oil cap? I’m curious if the language in the owner’s manual will be the same as other current models.


Yes the manual’s public now on the site. Basically it’s 0w20, but if you need to top off you can use other viscosity if you can’t find 0w20.

Saw a couple videos on YouTube that describe why Noack is important for DI. Yes EGR is the main issue but if the oil doesn’t evaporate you’ve got a better oil.

Thanks. Language is the same.

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M1900A_STIS.pdf

Page 446:

Quote:
NOTE
Engine oil viscosity (thickness) affects fuel economy. Oils of lower viscosity provide better fuel economy. However, in hot weather, oil of higher viscosity is required to properly lubricate the engine.


And 483:

Quote:
0W-20 synthetic oil is the required oil for optimum engine performance and protection. Conventional oil may be used if synthetic oil is unavailable.

*: If 0W-20 synthetic oil is not available, 5W-30 conventional oil may be used if replenishment is needed but should be changed to 0W-20 synthetic oil at the next oil change.


As per the other manuals, they do not clearly define what is considered "hot temps" or "thicker viscosity". Also, only 0W-20 is noted on the viscosity chart.

Even if there are conditions/applications where a 5W-30 would be a better fit, the numbers are probably small compared to paying CAFE fines or giving up CAFE credits when the entire Subaru fleet is considered. Try to get SoA to provide clarity on the hot temps and thicker viscosity and they will tell you to use 0W-20. In stock form, the 2.0 DIT's have been showing low uoa wear metals on very short intervals despite having fuel dilution of 2-5%.

If your concern is more volatility and IVD over viscosity, I really wouldn't sweat it. Although, if you intend to keep it beyond the Powertrain Warranty, I would definitely consider an extended warranty from Subaru and resist any mods (e.g. Cobb Stage I). Especially on a first year turbo. Being a beta tester for Subaru definitely affected my wallet. You should look up Dyson Analysis if you intend to get into uoa's. His guidance would be very valuable. Or just do oil changes every 3,000 miles and save money on uoa's.



On June 26, 2000 the EPA replied in a letter to Ford and Honda to a request to use SAE 5w-20, GF-3 oil for certification in fuel economy and emission testing. In the letter the EPA stated that they would grant the request but they were quite specific about the requirements that Ford and Honda must meet. In general:

1. No other oil can be recommended or suggested in the owners manual. It must specify SAE 5w-20, GF-3.
2. SAE 5w-20, GF-3 must be available from the dealer.
3. SAE 5w-20, GF-3 must be available from quick lube shops.
4. SAE 5w-20, GF-3 must be available from retail stores.

I have a copy of this letter but I cannot find a link to it on the net (where I got it from).
 
Originally Posted By: kaesees
I think the FA24 has a much less aggressive tune and lower boost pressure than the FA20 - the specific power is substantially lower. I assume they wanted the whole system to be less stressed due to the different market segment, as well as the tow rating requirements than an Ascent has that a WRX doesn't.

While I would rather have a 3.0L or 3.6L NA 6-cylinder boxer than a 2.4L turbo 4-cylinder boxer if I were going to be towing regularly, I can understand that fuel economy requirements have forced their hand here. Hopefully the beefed-up CVT they developed for this behemoth can hold up long-term. Are they planning on mating a transmission cooler to it?


Yes, it's tuned for 87 rather than 93 like the FA20DIT's, and the CVT is tuned to maintain around 2000-2500 RPM since this provides excellent torque. As you suggested, the market for the Ascent is generally people not looking to vroom vroom - that's what the 'Rex is for. However, they've also discontinued the Foz XT going forward, meaning you'll only find the FA20DIT in the 'Rex going forward. For now.

The CVT itself requires a specific and unique CVTF compared to the High-Torque CVT fluids found in the 3.6R (OB, Legacy) and the HTCVT in the 'Rex and XT's. From what I understand, it does have a transmission cooler - there's a difference in towing capacity between the Base and higher trims that I think comes into play because of this - but the Ascent forums are peering over a bunch of articles in which we thought there was a second transmission cooler which is appearing to be more of an oil-air separator of some kind, which is going to also help limit the issues related to DI and carbon buildup.

@Jag posted an interesting thread about a "carbon cleaning" type of Valvoline oil going forward, since it's his assertion (probably correct) that modern oils don't "reverse" the carbon deposits but are designed to "prevent" said deposits, so I'd be curious if there's something like this down the road (years and years).

I'm not looking to buy at the moment, as a better financial time would be sometime after next Spring (2019) because of other expenses I have going, including the Mrs.'s car payment, but, I'd be planning on getting an extended warranty regardless to protect myself from catastrophic damage. So, I'd get the $100 or $250 deductible program out to 100k miles and 10 years backed by Subaru itself.

It's also worth noting that Subaru is the type of car company that just might extend everyone's warranty out to 10/100 for powertrain components as needed because of unforeseen issues. I'm a perfect example of that - they just replaced my torque converter, at 85k miles and 7 years of ownership, for free because of an extended warranty. I have one of the first generation Lineatronic CVT's in the Outback. It was great customer-forward thinking that saved me from having to spend around $2000 on a car that's KBB'ed around $8000.

Peace of mind is worth something too. I may just run OEM Idemitsu oil in it for a while, even if I do the changes myself. From what I remember from looking at other UOA's, the OEM Idemitsu oil is generally good stuff, with good specs - but we don't know how it'll run in a FA24DIT yet since they haven't been launched yet.
 
My parent's neighbor has one on order - if anything Subaru should have learned from the FB20/25 oil consumption issues and the EJ2xT boost issues but the FA24 is entering new territory even for them but I don't think the typical Ascent owner will flash over PCM with a Cobb or Vishnu tune.

Idemitsu's plain-jane moly 0-20 has a lower NOACK value than their D1G2 oil and it was me, I'd run only D1G2 oils. If I had one, I might even consider a xw-30. Subaru Japan is selling a Total-made 0w-30 that has their blessing across the line.

I'm personally looking forward to the new XV Crosstrek Hybrid that supposedly uses the battery and on-board charging architecture as the Prius Prime, and I assume a Subaru-adapted Lexus GS450h/LS600hL drive unit. Not looking to buy, I want to plan ahead for the next 10 years first.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: nthach
My parent's neighbor has one on order - if anything Subaru should have learned from the FB20/25 oil consumption issues and the EJ2xT boost issues but the FA24 is entering new territory even for them but I don't think the typical Ascent owner will flash over PCM with a Cobb or Vishnu tune.

Idemitsu's plain-jane moly 0-20 has a lower NOACK value than their D1G2 oil and it was me, I'd run only D1G2 oils. If I had one, I might even consider a xw-30. Subaru Japan is selling a Total-made 0w-30 that has their blessing across the line.

I'm personally looking forward to the new XV Crosstrek Hybrid that supposedly uses the battery and on-board charging architecture as the Prius Prime, and I assume a Subaru-adapted Lexus GS450h/LS600hL drive unit. Not looking to buy, I want to plan ahead for the next 10 years first.


The oil consumption on the 25, I believe, was caused primarily by bad oil control rings which they ended up changing the supply company. I think.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Under 7% is tough to get in a 0w20. https://www.ravenol.de/uploads/tx_ravenol/pdf-print/RAVENOL_DFE_SAE_0W20_1.pdf should be available in the U.S. soon. Not sure when. It's 7.6%. All PAO+POE base oil formula, expensive stuff, but with lots of spec qualifications to use for Subaru warranty purposes.
Easier to get and cheaper is Mobil1 Annual Protection 0w20, which should have a NOACK at least somewhat close to the 5w30's 8.5%. I don't know what would be better other than the Ravenol DFE.

FWIW, Ravenol ECS is a hair under that at 7.4%.
 
Interesting. Perhaps even pursuing an SN+ type of oil is better yet, since that helps with LSPI events, which are bad bad bad for a turbo.
 
I think D1G2 oils will be just fine, IIRC GM set even higher standards with dexos compared to API SN+.

Kendall, Warren(via ServicePro and a few of the brands they supply), SOPUS and Castrol are already rolling out SN+ oils especially in high mileage. The HM stuff isn't D1G2 approved, probably for the sake of pricing as GM via CQA wants a licensing fee and testing.
 
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