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Kinetic energy recovery system #4780392
06/07/18 04:34 PM
06/07/18 04:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
Hi.
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
What i wonder is, is it really difficult or unnecessery to recover that enegry and use under acceleration ?
It would especially be useful while driving in heavy traffic.

Last edited by NICAT; 06/07/18 04:35 PM.
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780401
06/07/18 04:45 PM
06/07/18 04:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,402
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,402
'Stralia
Certainly it would, but then there's another few thousand dollars worth of stuff on top of he car, plus the weight.

electrical would require motor generators somewhere in the drive train plus batteries of some sort.

I've seen it done hydraulically on rigs, where a bit of the braking effort is stored to push it off next start.

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780404
06/07/18 04:50 PM
06/07/18 04:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,781
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,781
SE British Columbia, Canada
Originally Posted By: NICAT
Hi.
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
What i wonder is, is it really difficult or unnecessery to recover that enegry and use under acceleration ?
It would especially be useful while driving in heavy traffic.



You are describing hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius, one of the first ones. Braking causes the on board battery to get charged and the pressing the accelerator releases energy to the motor/generator and helps accelerate the car.


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: Shannow] #4780409
06/07/18 04:54 PM
06/07/18 04:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Certainly it would, but then there's another few thousand dollars worth of stuff on top of he car, plus the weight.

electrical would require motor generators somewhere in the drive train plus batteries of some sort.

I've seen it done hydraulically on rigs, where a bit of the braking effort is stored to push it off next start.


Sir, You are right. If it is done at electrical level, it would be more complicated, even though it would have more and easily upgradable storage capacity.
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780411
06/07/18 04:54 PM
06/07/18 04:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,513
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,513
MN
Originally Posted By: NICAT
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
My Ford C-Max Hybrid does it all the time, and it has a gasoline engine. It does improve MPG by quite a bit.
Now for non-hybrids, Mazda uses a fat capacitor to recover kinetic energy (its very limited as to how much it can soak up!!):

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780414
06/07/18 04:57 PM
06/07/18 04:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,513
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,513
MN
Originally Posted By: NICAT
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

Hydraulic Hybrids were big a few years ago. Hardly hear about them anymore. They recover braking energy in things like stop-start garbage trucks and city vehicles, and store it in an accumulator. Limited storage, but they work OK.
Flywheels can be used, but they need shafts to spin them up, and you hope they don't fly apart.

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780416
06/07/18 04:59 PM
06/07/18 04:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,462
Toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,462
Toronto
Originally Posted By: NICAT

But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?


A big ole flywheel bolted to the chassis might screw up the crash safety, and how about the geartrain to drive it? Impracticality for days


...as more root causes are discovered, and as events that seemed spontaneous have their origins revealed...
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: oil_film_movies] #4780423
06/07/18 05:03 PM
06/07/18 05:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 88
Azerbaijan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: NICAT
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

Hydraulic Hybrids were big a few years ago. Hardly hear about them anymore. They recover braking energy in things like stop-start garbage trucks and city vehicles, and store it in an accumulator. Limited storage, but they work OK.
Flywheels can be used, but they need shafts to spin them up, and you hope they don't fly apart.


If flywheels are used, how long can they store the energy ? smile

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780432
06/07/18 05:11 PM
06/07/18 05:11 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,401
Georgia
AVB Offline
AVB  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,401
Georgia
Maybe that could be coupled with something like FCA's eTorque starter-generator system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmGoh4Yhnxo

Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780442
06/07/18 05:22 PM
06/07/18 05:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 654
NY
mx5miata Offline
mx5miata  Offline
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 654
NY
gas engine with stored braking energy to power an electronic turbo/supercharger.


NAPA FULL SYNTHETIC 0w20 Partsplus oil filter
Wix air filter
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780506
06/07/18 06:20 PM
06/07/18 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,524
Silicon Valley
PandaBear Offline
PandaBear  Offline
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,524
Silicon Valley
You are talking about hybrid. Depends on the kind you have some pros and cons: battery if you want to store your energy for a long time (hours to months), flywheel if you want minimal loss but not much waste, and then other exotic stuff like pneumatic if you want something in between.

In the end it is about cost and benefit. Prius and other similar hybrid has a good compromise between cost and benefit (that's why cabbies and delivery guys use them), flywheel is good for racing, etc. For some vehicles you don't have much space for these devices so you just let it burn fuel and waste them (most minivan and pickups).

The question is whether it is even better if you make it a battery EV and use the savings from the engine for a bigger battery pack.


"You keep asking questions PandaBear and you'll end up a vegetarian like my wife" - Camu Mahubah
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780583
06/07/18 07:26 PM
06/07/18 07:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,781
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,781
SE British Columbia, Canada
The Formula 1 cars are partial hybrids now.


If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: Snagglefoot] #4780655
06/07/18 08:19 PM
06/07/18 08:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,938
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 25,938
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Their system from a few years ago was actually called the Kinetic Energy Recovery System. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780694
06/07/18 08:56 PM
06/07/18 08:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 429
New England
555 Offline
555  Offline
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 429
New England
2009 was KERS. A heat recovery system with its own motor was later combined in addition to the kinetic recovery system. An explanation is available at formula1.com. Cannot post link for some reason.

Last edited by 555; 06/07/18 08:58 PM.

84 XJ6 M1
92 Mustang 5.0 Redline
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Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT] #4780704
06/07/18 09:06 PM
06/07/18 09:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,563
Western S.C.
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,563
Western S.C.
With battery energy storage, much of the original energy gets lost in the transitions from mechanical to electrical to electrical at a different voltage to chemical energy, and then back.

All modern electric cars recover braking energy, and have much more battery capacity than "regular" hybrids.


2011 Toyota Prius now at 94K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
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