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#4780392 - 06/07/18 05:34 PM Kinetic energy recovery system
NICAT Online   content


Registered: 04/05/18
Posts: 55
Loc: Azerbaijan
Hi.
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
What i wonder is, is it really difficult or unnecessery to recover that enegry and use under acceleration ?
It would especially be useful while driving in heavy traffic.


Edited by NICAT (06/07/18 05:35 PM)

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#4780401 - 06/07/18 05:45 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
Shannow Offline


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39932
Loc: 'Stralia
Certainly it would, but then there's another few thousand dollars worth of stuff on top of he car, plus the weight.

electrical would require motor generators somewhere in the drive train plus batteries of some sort.

I've seen it done hydraulically on rigs, where a bit of the braking effort is stored to push it off next start.

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#4780404 - 06/07/18 05:50 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1777
Loc: Alberta
Originally Posted By: NICAT
Hi.
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
What i wonder is, is it really difficult or unnecessery to recover that enegry and use under acceleration ?
It would especially be useful while driving in heavy traffic.



You are describing hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius, one of the first ones. Braking causes the on board battery to get charged and the pressing the accelerator releases energy to the motor/generator and helps accelerate the car.

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#4780409 - 06/07/18 05:54 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: Shannow]
NICAT Online   content


Registered: 04/05/18
Posts: 55
Loc: Azerbaijan
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Certainly it would, but then there's another few thousand dollars worth of stuff on top of he car, plus the weight.

electrical would require motor generators somewhere in the drive train plus batteries of some sort.

I've seen it done hydraulically on rigs, where a bit of the braking effort is stored to push it off next start.


Sir, You are right. If it is done at electrical level, it would be more complicated, even though it would have more and easily upgradable storage capacity.
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

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#4780411 - 06/07/18 05:54 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2571
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NICAT
To this day, in cars with gasoline engines, the kinetic energy under braking is simply wasted.
My Ford C-Max Hybrid does it all the time, and it has a gasoline engine. It does improve MPG by quite a bit.
Now for non-hybrids, Mazda uses a fat capacitor to recover kinetic energy (its very limited as to how much it can soak up!!):

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#4780414 - 06/07/18 05:57 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
oil_film_movies Offline


Registered: 06/13/16
Posts: 2571
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: NICAT
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

Hydraulic Hybrids were big a few years ago. Hardly hear about them anymore. They recover braking energy in things like stop-start garbage trucks and city vehicles, and store it in an accumulator. Limited storage, but they work OK.
Flywheels can be used, but they need shafts to spin them up, and you hope they don't fly apart.

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#4780416 - 06/07/18 05:59 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
PeterPolyol Offline


Registered: 03/06/16
Posts: 1345
Loc: toronto
Originally Posted By: NICAT

But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?


A big ole flywheel bolted to the chassis might screw up the crash safety, and how about the geartrain to drive it? Impracticality for days

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#4780423 - 06/07/18 06:03 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: oil_film_movies]
NICAT Online   content


Registered: 04/05/18
Posts: 55
Loc: Azerbaijan
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: NICAT
But if the energy can be saved mechanically, wouldn't it be more simple and useful enough?

Hydraulic Hybrids were big a few years ago. Hardly hear about them anymore. They recover braking energy in things like stop-start garbage trucks and city vehicles, and store it in an accumulator. Limited storage, but they work OK.
Flywheels can be used, but they need shafts to spin them up, and you hope they don't fly apart.


If flywheels are used, how long can they store the energy ? smile

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#4780432 - 06/07/18 06:11 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
AVB Offline


Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 1283
Loc: Georgia
Maybe that could be coupled with something like FCA's eTorque starter-generator system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmGoh4Yhnxo

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#4780442 - 06/07/18 06:22 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
mx5miata Offline


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 402
Loc: NY
gas engine with stored braking energy to power an electronic turbo/supercharger.
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#4780506 - 06/07/18 07:20 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
PandaBear Offline


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 14221
Loc: Silicon Valley
You are talking about hybrid. Depends on the kind you have some pros and cons: battery if you want to store your energy for a long time (hours to months), flywheel if you want minimal loss but not much waste, and then other exotic stuff like pneumatic if you want something in between.

In the end it is about cost and benefit. Prius and other similar hybrid has a good compromise between cost and benefit (that's why cabbies and delivery guys use them), flywheel is good for racing, etc. For some vehicles you don't have much space for these devices so you just let it burn fuel and waste them (most minivan and pickups).

The question is whether it is even better if you make it a battery EV and use the savings from the engine for a bigger battery pack.
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#4780583 - 06/07/18 08:26 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
Snagglefoot Offline


Registered: 12/31/17
Posts: 1777
Loc: Alberta
The Formula 1 cars are partial hybrids now.

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#4780655 - 06/07/18 09:19 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: Snagglefoot]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24620
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Their system from a few years ago was actually called the Kinetic Energy Recovery System. wink
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#4780694 - 06/07/18 09:56 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
555 Offline


Registered: 06/08/09
Posts: 374
Loc: New England
2009 was KERS. A heat recovery system with its own motor was later combined in addition to the kinetic recovery system. An explanation is available at formula1.com. Cannot post link for some reason.


Edited by 555 (06/07/18 09:58 PM)
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#4780704 - 06/07/18 10:06 PM Re: Kinetic energy recovery system [Re: NICAT]
CR94 Offline


Registered: 03/20/16
Posts: 1120
Loc: Western S.C. since 1996
With battery energy storage, much of the original energy gets lost in the transitions from mechanical to electrical to electrical at a different voltage to chemical energy, and then back.

All modern electric cars recover braking energy, and have much more battery capacity than "regular" hybrids.
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