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Flat Tappets: Observed Failures #4777426
06/04/18 03:28 PM
06/04/18 03:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
In reading the recent Pennzoil forum on this site, they make it clear that their new SN oils are backward compatible with all prior designations. So that means even though the ZDDP is less, some other substances must compensate for the loss of the ZDDP to protect flat tappet engines. However, with so many reports of flat tappet engine failures using SM or SN motor oil, what I'd like to know is this: Has anyone on this forum actually had a failure? Not one that you have heard about but a failure of an engine that you had in your car, or one that you built. There's lots of hearsay on all of the oil blogs and forums about flat tappet engine failures using newer oils but is there any real documentation? Thanks in advance.

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777432
06/04/18 03:37 PM
06/04/18 03:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,030
The Midwest
skyactiv Offline
skyactiv  Offline
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,030
The Midwest
If you really wanna make your head spin, Google 540ratblog. Lots of people disagree with the guy because of his one arm bandit machine, but he provides detailed personal knowledge on the subject aside from the engine oil testing he does. I think some oil makers market on public perception of high zinc oils so they can sell a niche product.


Wife: 15' Audi A4 quattro 6 speed manual
Me: 13' VW GTI 3 door 6 speed manual
Wanted: 2019 Ford Ranger
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777447
06/04/18 03:53 PM
06/04/18 03:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,599
Canada
Lolvoguy Offline
Lolvoguy  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,599
Canada
Anyone have a tl;dr version of 540ratblog?

I find good 'ol diesel oil works great in my BMW thumbsup


06 Lexus IS350- Wife
88 BMW 325is- Mistress
Say "no" to Turbo!
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777477
06/04/18 04:27 PM
06/04/18 04:27 PM
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 465
South Carolina
ka9mnx Online content
ka9mnx  Online Content
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 465
South Carolina
Originally Posted By: Building3
In reading the recent Pennzoil forum on this site, they make it clear that their new SN oils are backward compatible with all prior designations. So that means even though the ZDDP is less, some other substances must compensate for the loss of the ZDDP to protect flat tappet engines. However, with so many reports of flat tappet engine failures using SM or SN motor oil, what I'd like to know is this: Has anyone on this forum actually had a failure? Not one that you have heard about but a failure of an engine that you had in your car, or one that you built. There's lots of hearsay on all of the oil blogs and forums about flat tappet engine failures using newer oils but is there any real documentation? Thanks in advance.


I have a flat tappet engine and have used SN oils with no problems.

When this issue cam up I did A LOT of research on the subject. Back in the 50's and 60's ZDDP was used as a detergent. The boundary lubrication properties were discovered later. Most oils in the 50's, 60's and 70's had a ZDDP level of 600 or less. Late in the 70's and into the 80's they began to bump up the levels for better, overall, engine protedtion.

A broken-in flat tappet cam in a normal street car or truck will have no problems with SN oil. Where the problem comes in is with high valve lift, high valve spring pressures in hot rod engines.

Most cam failures in the 90's was later discovered to be with inferior camshaft and lifter materials and hardening. Present day failures are attributed to import lifters.


2005 Ranger 3.0 - M1 HM 5w-30/Motorcraft - (85+K)
2000 4Runner 3.4 - M1 HM 10w-30/Toyota - (250+K)
1997 B2500 Van 3.9 - M1 HM 10w-30/Mopar - (175+K)
1993 F150 4.9 - M1 HM 10w-30/Motorcraft - (250+K)
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: ka9mnx] #4777518
06/04/18 05:19 PM
06/04/18 05:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,825
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: ka9mnx


Most cam failures in the 90's was later discovered to be with inferior camshaft and lifter materials and hardening. Present day failures are attributed to import lifters.


Ah, So if that's true, IOW there were failures, and there still are.

Doesn't entirely fit the "non-issue" line you came in with,

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777528
06/04/18 05:30 PM
06/04/18 05:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,112
Dallas,Tx USA
aquariuscsm Online content
aquariuscsm  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 19,112
Dallas,Tx USA


1996 Nissan 300ZX 5-speed,Arctic Pearl(#175 of 300)
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30
2012 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L 2.4,auto,San Marino Red
Quaker State Ultimate Durability 10W30

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777563
06/04/18 06:04 PM
06/04/18 06:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 994
PENNSYLVANIA
JeepWJ19 Offline
JeepWJ19  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 994
PENNSYLVANIA
My flat tappet 4.0 has had some pretty loud lifter tick on cold starts regardless of ambient temperature. It's been like this for the past 60k miles I've had it. If it was a failure attributed to SN oils, I'd have a hard time believing it'd still be running to this day. JMO


2002 Jeep WJ 4.0 | Mobil 1 HM 5w30 |
TG8A | 2.5" lift | 148k miles

Software Engineer :]
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777569
06/04/18 06:10 PM
06/04/18 06:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 706
Los Gatos, CA
JeffKeryk Offline
JeffKeryk  Offline
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 706
Los Gatos, CA
A mild camshaft should be OK. If you get into higher spring rates, ZDDP becomes more important.
I run Rotella 15w40 in my 68 L36 Corvette Roadster and 65 4-4-2.

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777620
06/04/18 07:01 PM
06/04/18 07:01 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,263
PNW
Almost all modern engines are essentially "flat tappet" since a cam lobe actuate a shim on top of the valve stem bucket. It's still a cam lobe swiping motion over a flat surface just like a cam lobe on a hydraulic lifter.

In order to achieve the ILSAC GF-5 rating the oil must pass certain wear tests, and I'd think doing wear measurements on "flat tappet" type of valve train would be part of that.

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Ducked] #4777639
06/04/18 07:15 PM
06/04/18 07:15 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,075
Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: ka9mnx


Most cam failures in the 90's was later discovered to be with inferior camshaft and lifter materials and hardening. Present day failures are attributed to import lifters.


Ah, So if that's true, IOW there were failures, and there still are.

Doesn't entirely fit the "non-issue" line you came in with,


OK, cam and lifter failures are two different things. Obviously they relate to each other, but they come from different causes.

Most cam failures are caused by incorrect heat treating of wrong alloy selection and then poor surface hardening. The big failures (by numbers) were/are GM and Comp. Both were attributed to soft cores.

Lifters failures are related to one of three factors. Lifter face hardness, lifter face radial geometry, and poor bore fit. So something like the Delphi or Johnson lifters were well made and held to very tight tolerances. Then along came the off-shore copies ...

So the Aussies had/have to buy OEM lifters from the USA when GM and Ford were still building cars down under. Lifters were an expensive import item for the hot-rod community. So they got good at regrinding the faces and reusing them. Same quality metal throughout. They claim to be able to get three re-grinds and are still selling known good USA lifters as re-grinds around the world with decent results.

A cam will fail by wearing the nose off, usually through spalling. A lifter will fail by cupping or failing to spin. If a lifter skids (not spinning) it will die quickly. It's prolly dead in 100 Revolutions of the cam lobe, but if it starts spinning again, it'll limp along for a while. But the death knell is set.

The way you know which is which is by looking at the carnage. If the cam is flattened, but the lifter is mostly intact, you have a soft core /hardness issue. If the lifter is cupped or oddly worn, but the cam lobe looks about right, you have a bad lifter.

OEM spring pressures, even say Z-28 springs will not really stress a cam/lifter combo. But you start getting past say .550~.580 lift on a BBC (fairly mild hot cam) and say 350#s over the nose to control valve float above 5,000 RPM and you are goinna stress the materials. If they are not right, it'll die. >1,000 PPM ZDDP is mandatory as the spring pressures go up. Above these numbers and things just go sideways quicker, if not all correct.

Comp lost a lot of cam/lifter sets and did everything they could to blame the end user. Howards and Crower have had very, very few failures. Howard's offers a 5-year warranty if you buy their whole kit and follow instructions. Comp wouldn't do that if you paid them ...

Ford and Chrysler have had few cam/lifters failures running even their most aggressive factory grinds. Practically none of their daily driver combos have failed. And this is with average Joe doing spotty maintenance, etc. GM has not been so fortunate ...

So we need to know exactly what scenario you are interested in? I still will not buy much from Comp (mostly just rockers) and their other brands like Lunati. Howards or Crower - no question about their reliability as far as I'm concerned.

Oil pressure does not fix this. 60 PSI at 6,500 is plenty, more than enough. Bad oil and bad metallurgy will get you every time. It's up to the builder to get things right. Break-in right. Pop the valve covers and make sure every push rod is spinning as it should after initial fire-up. No start stop, or herky jerky allowed. It's either right, or shut it down and fix it ...

Cam on shim/bucket is a type of flat tappet. But not the traditional push-rod configuration that had all the issues ... OHC engines have different lube strategies and lighter valve trains, so they have milder spring pressures (no need to control as much inertia). Push-rod engines have cam lobes lubed by sling oil off the crank. Hit and miss at best ...

Last edited by BrocLuno; 06/04/18 07:23 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: ZeeOSix] #4777641
06/04/18 07:16 PM
06/04/18 07:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,916
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Offline
OVERKILL  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,916
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Almost all modern engines are essentially "flat tappet" since a cam lobe actuate a shim on top of the valve stem bucket. It's still a cam lobe swiping motion over a flat surface just like a cam lobe on a hydraulic lifter.

In order to achieve the ILSAC GF-5 rating the oil must pass certain wear tests, and I'd think doing wear measurements on "flat tappet" type of valve train would be part of that.


Quite a few of them are roller. I'd say quite a few, perhaps even the majority are cam-over-bucket, but there is certainly a significant percentage that are roller.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: OVERKILL] #4777703
06/04/18 08:16 PM
06/04/18 08:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,529
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,529
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Almost all modern engines are essentially "flat tappet" since a cam lobe actuate a shim on top of the valve stem bucket. It's still a cam lobe swiping motion over a flat surface just like a cam lobe on a hydraulic lifter.

In order to achieve the ILSAC GF-5 rating the oil must pass certain wear tests, and I'd think doing wear measurements on "flat tappet" type of valve train would be part of that.


Quite a few of them are roller. I'd say quite a few, perhaps even the majority are cam-over-bucket, but there is certainly a significant percentage that are roller.


Different kettle of fish...

"Flat Tappets" weren't flat, they were convex, and worked on a quite narrow lobe, offset with a slope on the lobe so that they would rotate...contact surfaces comparatively tiny, and the rocker arms amplifying the movement at the valve a the valve end, and thus the contact forces at the other. Being required to be slid into the block, to get the lift meant a reduction in base circle, and more contact pressure.

Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Shannow] #4777780
06/04/18 10:13 PM
06/04/18 10:13 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
turtlevette Offline
turtlevette  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,756
Massachusetts
Now. I wonder. How much sliding do roller lifters do. There has to be some.

How much sliding do the needle bearings within the roller lifter do? I would think ep and anti wear additives are still important in a roller cam system.



USA-1
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: ZeeOSix] #4777781
06/04/18 10:19 PM
06/04/18 10:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,585
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,585
Oregon
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Almost all modern engines are essentially "flat tappet" since a cam lobe actuate a shim on top of the valve stem bucket. It's still a cam lobe swiping motion over a flat surface just like a cam lobe on a hydraulic lifter.

In order to achieve the ILSAC GF-5 rating the oil must pass certain wear tests, and I'd think doing wear measurements on "flat tappet" type of valve train would be part of that.


The pressure is far less, though, in bucket-style valvetrains. Push rod and rockers have a very high pressure spike as the cam rolls past peak lift due to the push rod/rocker design.

And most modern engines have migrated to roller valvetrains for fuel efficiency.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: Flat Tappets: Observed Failures [Re: Building3] #4777822
06/05/18 12:18 AM
06/05/18 12:18 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,895
New Zealand
Silk Offline
Silk  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,895
New Zealand
It's more of a 2 valve pushrod problem, heavy valves, heavy springs to control them. And not all lifters rotate, some are fixed in their blocks. Here are some Triumph twin followers...they would get a groove right in the center when worn. You could grind it out, but the radius was important...a flatter radius on R lifters.



1987 BMW R65 - Aegis SAE30
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
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