Merc 3.0CRD Oil advice please.

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Clever, not all Group 3 basestocks are creates equally. Just like not all additives are created equally (for example, moly). Also, G3 has certain advantages over Group 4/5. Again, focus on the qualities of the finished product, which includes rigorous quality testing to obtain OEM approval. It just takes the speculation/conspiracy/guesswork out of the equation.

And the ecodiesel did not have oil related failures. They had engineering related failures and are using the band-aid effect of thicker oil to fix.
 
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Very informative post. Thanks edyvw. The table I made in another thread in the Euro section may be of help to the OP to find an oil that meets the 3 approvals you mentioned:

full-73644-25115-aceac3.png



Hi.
The OM642 has issues with the crankcase vapours gumming up the works. Is a lower NOACK better for this issue? Are they much the same once they all reach 10% or less?
The cheapest oil available to me would you believe is genuine merc stuff from the main dealer. I can have it for £3.25 a litre delivered. I can find no specs for it though. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-L-Genuine-...=item1c6d8cf701
 
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I wouldn’t worry too much about NOACK. They will all be extremely close to each other. I would find one with 229.51, LL-04, and 504/507 that is the cheapest. They are all top notch oils.
 
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Originally Posted By: Tikka
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Very informative post. Thanks edyvw. The table I made in another thread in the Euro section may be of help to the OP to find an oil that meets the 3 approvals you mentioned:

full-73644-25115-aceac3.png



Hi.
The OM642 has issues with the crankcase vapours gumming up the works. Is a lower NOACK better for this issue? Are they much the same once they all reach 10% or less?
The cheapest oil available to me would you believe is genuine merc stuff from the main dealer. I can have it for £3.25 a litre delivered. I can find no specs for it though. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-L-Genuine-...=item1c6d8cf701

Probably made by Mobil1.
MB229.51 is stringent on NOACK. Unless oil is Mobil1 5W30 ESP which has very low NOACK, other will be pretty close to each other.
 
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
The new E6 HDEO Lubes being sold now, specifically Delvac LE 5w30 and Delvac ESP 5w30 are not cheap. LE is $35 and ESP is $45 a gallon. That is not "cheap", it is the same price as 507 oil, so I don't see your point about not being able to market "expensive low ash HD oils".

They're cheap up here, and I would gather a distributor would be a better source for those south of the border, too. I can get Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for under $30 a gallon, and that's Canadian dollars. The same applies to Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 (in five litre jugs here), which I was pricing out before Shell's Chris Guerrero set me up.

Generally speaking, I'd expect them to be expensive outside of the distributor, at least until they become more common on the shelf. NAPA Canada can get the Rotella relatively cheap by Canadian standards. I haven't seen the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 at anywhere except the distributor so far.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak

They're cheap up here, and I would gather a distributor would be a better source for those south of the border, too. I can get Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 for under $30 a gallon, and that's Canadian dollars. The same applies to Shell Rotella T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30 (in five litre jugs here), which I was pricing out before Shell's Chris Guerrero set me up.

Generally speaking, I'd expect them to be expensive outside of the distributor, at least until they become more common on the shelf. NAPA Canada can get the Rotella relatively cheap by Canadian standards. I haven't seen the Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 at anywhere except the distributor so far.


It's not cheap. I have a friend here in CA that works for the regional Mobil bulk oil distributor. He can get the Delvac LE 5w30 at his employee discount which is wholesale cost + 15% + Sales tax. It was ~ $35/gallon, if I bought a case 4x1 gallons.

He does not have the Delvac ESP 5w30 in the warehouse yet.

I was able to get a gallon of Delvac Synthetic 75w90 GL5 gear oil for $28 + tax from him which was a great price, however the Delvac LE is not cheap, even at his discounted cost.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2


This doesn't say failure rate is 15%. It says it's risen 15% since a previous point in time.

Also those "secret documents" on the first link aren't very convincing. Sorry I need more hard data besides these posts on an obscure forum..

I read many pages of the thread in the second link about a year ago. I was considering buying an Ecodiesel until I realized how bad they were. The 1500 Ecodiesel is a great idea but poorly executed by FCA.

Many owners had bottom end failures, and that does seem to be the most common issue, however since most failed under warranty no autopsies were performed and FCA holds the data.

FCA has said publicly the failures on the Ecodiesel are oil related.

I also have seen numerous UOAs from Ecodiesels that had coolant contamination in the oil, either due to a failed EGR / Oil Cooler or both. So if the engine oil had coolant contamination, this would still be considered an oil related bottom end failure.
 
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.
 
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Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
It's not cheap. I have a friend here in CA that works for the regional Mobil bulk oil distributor. He can get the Delvac LE 5w30 at his employee discount which is wholesale cost + 15% + Sales tax. It was ~ $35/gallon, if I bought a case 4x1 gallons.

Yes, that is overpriced. Delvac 1 LE 5w-30 was the same price as Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, and the price I mentioned is me walking in off the street, not at corporate discount, either. Large commercial enterprises here get it at half that price again, so likely under $15 a gallon for them.
 
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Can you provide a TSB or some other documentation showing the engineering failures on the Ecodiesel ?


Failure rate is at 15%. Mostly main bearing failures. These are not due to low saps oil. Not sure if FCA or VMM have formally recognized the issue.

Link 1

Lots of info here. 1,500+ posts: Link 2


This doesn't say failure rate is 15%. It says it's risen 15% since a previous point in time.

Also those "secret documents" on the first link aren't very convincing. Sorry I need more hard data besides these posts on an obscure forum..

I read many pages of the thread in the second link about a year ago. I was considering buying an Ecodiesel until I realized how bad they were. The 1500 Ecodiesel is a great idea but poorly executed by FCA.

Many owners had bottom end failures, and that does seem to be the most common issue, however since most failed under warranty no autopsies were performed and FCA holds the data.

FCA has said publicly the failures on the Ecodiesel are oil related.

I also have seen numerous UOAs from Ecodiesels that had coolant contamination in the oil, either due to a failed EGR / Oil Cooler or both. So if the engine oil had coolant contamination, this would still be considered an oil related bottom end failure.


FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.
 
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.

I would say that is conclusion of this topic.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.
 
If a BMW engine started losing main or rod bearings using LL-01 or LL-04 oil, would you blame the oil? I think not. Of course BMW could probably improve the failure rate by spec’ing 10W-60, but that doesn’t mean it’s a lubricant issue. It’s an design issue.
 
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The same oil that met the builder approval from FCA? It seems to me that if you come up with a specification and then contract an oil company to produce said oil, and issue said builder specification, then find out that you're having failures, saying oil related failure is a matter of semantics.

If you call for an unsuitable product for your application and the predictable consequences occur, whose fault is it? If Cummins decides all of a sudden to revise CES 20086 so that Pennzoil 5w-20 conventional passes it and they issue them a builder approval, the predictable consequences are not Pennzoil's fault.

Now, I have no problem with you going to an ordinary HDEO in your situation, nor do I have a concern with Chrysler doing that same with these particular vehicles. FCA simply didn't specify an appropriate oil. If C3 wasn't appropriate, they should have specified E7, E9 in the first place.
 
The talk of engine failure on the later Fiat built 3.0crd Jeep is interesting. I have never come across this problem being reported in UK despite the vast vast majority of UK WK2 being Diesel. The only Petrol one being the 6.4 litre hemi that sells in tiny numbers.
 
Perhaps tunes in North America are different, and that could be troublesome, too. Emissions standards are different, and while we do have ULSD, it may not be identical to what's available in Europe, either.
 
Originally Posted By: CleverUserName
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
An engine that’s engineered for a particular lubricant does not have such a high failure rate because of said lubricant, it’s an engineering flaw. There are many Diesel engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles on C3 lubricants. I don’t know how to dumb it down any further.


Originally Posted By: edyvw

FCA is holding data but it is publicly saying it is oil related. So, let me get this straight: FCA is in business of making engines but not oil. So they blamed oil made by Shell and then decided to use another oil also made by Shell. No autopsies are performed but they know it is oil and they are holding data.
Geeez.


The autopsies may have been performed by the dealer, however the data is owned by FCA. They (FCA) are the only ones who know exactly what is happening. Publicly, they say it's oil related failures.

FCA did not blame the oil itself or Shell, but the C3 type of oil made by Pennzoil.

The failures may primarily be from coolant contamination of the engine oil. If so, it's still an oil related failure. A warranty repair. Period.

Design flaw or low quality parts that fail (Oil/EGR coolers). Statistically, the causes are known only to FCA.

I've already made my point, and the information provided is accurate. I choose to not use any C3 lube in a utility vehicle used for moderate duty or towing 7.5K lbs based on the Ecodiesel fiasco. As a result, I'm getting great oil reports with low wear numbers with a CJ-4 substitue. Dumb? Case closed.

All you're doing is speculating.

So that is why FCA said it is OK to use C3 5W40, OR A3/B3 B4 5W40 OR CJ-4 5W40?
Autopsies performed by dealer?
This is becoming interesting, keep going.
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Perhaps tunes in North America are different, and that could be troublesome, too. Emissions standards are different, and while we do have ULSD, it may not be identical to what's available in Europe, either.

No SCR in Europe until 2016.
 
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