Toyota 4.0L v-6, Mobil 1 AP, 20k OCI.

[Bwalker]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bwalker
This vehicle is driven in incredibly dusty conditions. Along with lites of highway cruising at 90mph and alot of time in 4wd.
I have also checked the air filter and the seal lip was a bit buggered up on the OEM air filter. The band clamp to the intake was a bit loose as well, but didnt appear to be leaking. I plan to resample at 10K and see what it looks like.
Any comments?


I'd cut the OCI in half after fixing the air intake tract leaks and resample at that duration. If things look more respectable, I'd then try 15K and then 20K again once you know you don't have a source of foreign contaminants.

That's a big issue with extended OCI's, you have that much longer where an issue, like your intake tract leak, can persist unchecked, and because the oil isn't changed, you aren't flushing out those contaminants. That leads to wear, which I believe we are seeing evidence of with the elevated iron numbers.

Your noted usage profile really isn't the issue here, and may in fact be fine with this OCI length with a properly sealed intake tract.

Any idea how long silica will stay in the oil given residual carry over? Assuming the problem is fixed do you expect silica would return to normal for the first sample at 10k?


You would flush the majority of it out with the change. You would expect more normal readings on the 10K OCI, if they are not, then at least you haven't run 20K with an intake tract leak

Hopefully the issues I found solve the problem. Although in the back of mind I have my doubts. The dust is horrendous already and its still pretty wet.

 

[Bwalker]

Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.


If it has bi-metal bearings, silicon and aluminum are your bearing metals.

 

[Bwalker]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.


If it has bi-metal bearings, silicon and aluminum are your bearing metals.

Bi metal bearings typicaly contain tin IIRC. Tin is showing 0.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.
We have huge mining areas of commercial bauxite (aluminium ore) at 50 km away from an iron ore mine here.
The dirt and dust from bauxite mines is predominantly reddish in colour ,a colour associated with iron content.
I would speculate , other than iron content, your red dirt is likely to contain aluminium ore as well IMHO.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

OK, so I saw this, and since BWalker is among the few that sack up to run oils a long time, I wanted to do some rudimentary comparisons to my UOA on PUP 5W20 that ran 17,150 miles. So, Bwalker ran his oil 16.6% longer than I did, but the universal averages run 24% longer in Fusions than Tacomas. So I made the chart below to compare/contrast the oils by using the two mileages to kind of standardize the calculation. Bwalker, this is just comparing the oils- thanks for your valuable analysis (and balls!) to run this out to 20k- I know I was sweating it at 17k!

Here's the short version: universally, the Tacoma engine makes 24% more aluminum and 52% more iron and 248% more copper than the Fusion 2.5 when standardized to 7,200 miles.
In this instance, with M1 AP 5W30 in the Taco, and PUP 5W20 in the Fusion, this Taco made 313% more aluminum, 320% more iron, and had a 45% reduction in copper in only 2,850 miles more.
Insols were 0.4 Taco/0.2 Fusion, and TBN was 1.4/2.9 same comparison. Here's the chart:

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.


That is an interesting hypothesis.

Could perhaps try pulling a sample with a pump and from the valve at the same time and comparing the UOAs to try to prove it.

I thought the valves had a cover on them though?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.


If it has bi-metal bearings, silicon and aluminum are your bearing metals.

Bi metal bearings typicaly contain tin IIRC. Tin is showing 0.


I think that's the case for some, but perhaps not all. I know that Federal Mogul indicates their aluminum bearings use a tin overlay, but I don't see that same reference from Mahle/Clevite.

Also, and I could be wrong, but I thought that the aluminum or aluminum/silicon was the top-most layer, with tin being the next layer down. If that's the case, like with a tri-metal, then you'd only have the top-most layer material show up until it has been breached to expose the next layer down. Which is usually why you see lead in that case, rather than lead and copper.

 

[PimTac]

For those that think the iron is high, re-read the original comment. This truck was run hard in severe conditions. It’s one thing to run any oil for 20k but combine that with 20k of severe service. In the end I think the AP did well under the circumstances. I will reiterate that a 10k oci would be better for the op in his situation. Running M1 EP should be a good combination here.

 

[Bwalker]

I will check it again at 10k. If the iron is still pretty high I may go back to standard oil at 5k just to deal with it. It has 3k on it already since this OA was taken so it wont be long. I did check the air box today and it was clean so maybe the new filter and grease will be all it takes to get the wear metals and silicon under control.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Insolubles at 0.4 is higher than most. Try a Fram Ultra synthetic-media oil filter instead of the cheaper Mobil1 paper-glass blend one you used.

 

[john_pifer]

Following.

Interesting thread, especially since I also have a Taco with the 4.0, and I've used only M1 oils (currently M1-EP 5W-30 at approximately 10K OCIs; though I have pushed it above 12K - see link to thread below):

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...he_#Post4735073

In my last UOA, my Al, Fe, and Si PPM were almost the same as OP in this thread. Interestingly, the add packs between the 2 UOAs look identical to me, despite the fact that he's running M1-AP.

My use is also about the same as his. Higher-speed highway driving, with some stop-and-go.

 

[Bwalker]

If you look at the Tacoma forums it appears that eating dust is a known issue for this engine.
I went over mine with a fine tooth comb and greased the heck out of the filter seals. Hopefully it gets better, but im not holding my breath either.
The good news is the things run forever regardless. The mine I work at has two Tacoma's and the things are operated only off road. They have been super reliable despite having several hundred thousand miles on each. Night and day difference between them and GM trucks which make up the remainder of the fleet.

 

[oil_film_movies]

Bwalker, GM needs to find out why the Toyota Tacoma pickup trucks at the mine sites are holding up better than theirs!! Looks like a decent durability comparison test.

I'm impressed with the KV100 value at the end. It was a still a 5w30. I do think a Fram Ultra might get more junk out.

 

[JLTD]

Severe service, and speed limits around Billings are 70, and at higher altitudes. I'd say this engine is a great candidate for following Toyota's requirement for a heavier oil/adequate protection under heavy usage. OP, I'd try the 5w30 version and will bet your wear numbers will come down (even more than just fixing the filtration problem will bring them down).

Of course for science, I have to ask to make the same run, with good filtration, on the 5w20 then go 5w30 to compare.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
That's the most iron I've ever seen!


Not even. The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM according to the UOA write up on BITOGs "Home Page".

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
Well, Mobil says this oil will survive 20k; and with a 1.4 TBN and still in grade at 20k, it did survive.

Thanks for posting!


I don't recall XM ever saying AP will "survive" 20K.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Bwalker
Any comments as to why the bearing metal numbers were all good given the silica?
Im using a Fumoto valve for a drain plug. Is it possible the silica, iron and aluminium came from dirt in the Fumoto outlet? The dirt is blood red at work so I am betting the iron content is high and aluminium is a common element in certain soils.


If it has bi-metal bearings, silicon and aluminum are your bearing metals.

Bi metal bearings typicaly contain tin IIRC. Tin is showing 0.


Babbitt bearings also contain tin.

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: racin4ds
More false claims from M1, you'd be crazy to run that mediocre oil for 20K in any vehicle that you care about. Those Fe and Al numbers are horrible compared to any other oil report on this engine. I love how the M1 fanboys keep doing their best to justify these ridiculous marketing claims!!



Bogus info. I know several doing 15+K with EP and reg M1 with several 100K miles. The OPs report is quite good for the conditions he drives in.

 

[Bwalker]

I now am approaching 10k miles. I will be sampling next week.
I should mentioned that I did change the air filter and greased the seal lips with Bel Ray water proof grease. I also tightened the air box to motor sealing band and found a loose hose that entered the clean side of the filter box. Hopefully this solves the silica and iron issue.
FWIW i did find out that the dirt in the local I work in is full of iron and aluminum.