Extended OCI and warranty

[PWMDMD]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: PWMDMD
...Theoretical again and since I'm a truth guy I wouldn't do this but - I go to Walmart and buy oil for my other car which always seems to be on a similar maintenance schedule and I save the receipt. MM allows you to change the oil filter every other OC so no problems there. I change the oil on my Mazda5 and write that I used that oil in my Honda. Catastrophic event happens that I logically know has nothing to do with the extended OCI so feel justified in presenting my documentation to the dealership.

How could a dealership deny coverage? Said another way if I choose to do my own OCs a receipt is all I will every have even if I change the oil more often than recommended by the MM - how would the dealership ever make heads or tails of it?


In that scenario the dealer wouldn't deny coverage, but you would be committing fraud.


Yes, and that is bad...agreed.

 

[JohnnyJohnson]

Originally Posted By: JustN89
If you value your warranty, why risk it? The warranty could potentially save you thousands, which to me might not be worth the risk taken in order to save a few bucks.

That said, if you get denied warranty coverage and decide to fight them over it, they would have to prove that the extended OCI caused the failure. The way I see it, that would be pretty difficult to do unless it's obvious, such as sludge build-up.


Yep now days your cars oil monitor will tattle on you and your done!

 

[klt1986]

Originally Posted By: JustN89
Originally Posted By: klt1986
Originally Posted By: JustN89
If you value your warranty, why risk it? The warranty could potentially save you thousands, which to me might not be worth the risk taken in order to save a few bucks.

That said, if you get denied warranty coverage and decide to fight them over it, they would have to prove that the extended OCI caused the failure. The way I see it, that would be pretty difficult to do unless it's obvious, such as sludge build-up.


I think you could be in for a heck of a fight if something were to go wrong with the engine. Automakers employ a lot of lawyers and have much deeper pockets than the average citizen. If it ever went to court, your legal team would likely be required to prove your extended oil changes did not cause the warranty issue....assuming your problem was some type of engine failure. This could be expensive for you, in fact very expensive. IMO, new vehicles are too expensive to worry about saving a few $$$ extending your oil changes. FWIW, our Honda CR-V uses a maintenance minder and it always gets down to 15% oil life between 9-10k miles. It has done this since we bought it new in 2008.

This just isn't the case. The burden of proof is on the company providing the warranty, not on the consumer. They would have to use their vast legal resources to prove that the extended OCIs caused the failure, which isn't as easily done as they would like to make you believe.




That is why I said, "likely have to prove." I guess a better term would have been "possibly have to prove." Over the last 25 years I have spent a lot of time in courtrooms and have seen quite a few "open and shut" civil cases turn out completely surprising. As someone else pointed out, the internet is one thing but in the "real world" things may turn out a little different.

 

[PWMDMD]

Thanks for playing along everyone and scratching my itch.

 

[Brigadier]

From everything I have read, it seems that the days of the extended OCIs are long gone given that GDI is here to stay for the foreseeable future..

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
From everything I have read, it seems that the days of the extended OCIs are long gone given that GDI is here to stay for the foreseeable future..

I would do 10,000 miles OCI on a GDI engine and not bat an eye doing so.

 

[Brigadier]

Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
From everything I have read, it seems that the days of the extended OCIs are long gone given that GDI is here to stay for the foreseeable future..

I would do 10,000 miles OCI on a GDI engine and not bat an eye doing so.


Well, you can lead a horse to water.......

 

[Pelican]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: JustN89

This just isn't the case. The burden of proof is on the company providing the warranty, not on the consumer. They would have to use their vast legal resources to prove that the extended OCIs caused the failure, which isn't as easily done as they would like to make you believe.


For wins on the internet, you are right. In the real world, you may have to litigate on your own dime to prove you are right against companies that have deeper pockets to financially cripple you first.
When discussion like this come up, people have to ask themselves if they are willing to absorb the cost of taking that risk? Most smart people will go with following the OEM recommended OCI while in warranty and expecting warranty coverage.
Also, even AMSOIL will tell you to follow the the OEM recommended OCI while in warranty.


The company has to prove ONLY ONE thing and that is that one did not follow that which was contracted and that is OCI, this alone puts the owner in breach of contract and voids the warranty. It's a simple contract law not warranty law.

 

[Hootbro]

Originally Posted By: Pelican

The company has to prove ONLY ONE thing and that is that one did not follow that which was contracted and that is OCI, this alone puts the owner in breach of contract and voids the warranty. It's a simple contract law not warranty law.


Going by that, they can deny for being 1 mile outside the OCI. I highly doubt that would float in and of itself without showing the oil was the cause due to said condition.

 

[nap]

If your idea of “extended OCI” is running just 1 mile late, then may I ask what benefit are you seeking out of it?

 

[JLTD]

Originally Posted By: PWMDMD
Thanks for all the responses - that's what I thought - I will follow the MM.

Now as a purely theoretical question and I'm not saying I would'nt be truthful but as a hypothetical you're running Amsoil SS with an extended OC filter and you're sure the oil level is good and you get a UOA that says the oil is doing well and BAM out of no where something catastrophic happens unrelated to the extended OCI causing loss of oil and you fry the engine or something lubricated by oil breaks, etc.. How would a dealership prove the oil wasn't changed at the recommended MM interval? Under the above circumstances that seems like a very difficult thing to prove.


Exactly...they could ask for mx records or receipts. Easily taken care of.

I have read elsewhere, a post by a long haul courier that didn't change his Amsoil for over 60,000 miles and had a failure. The engine warranty company wanted to deny, but he had religiously performed UOAs which showed the oil's condition as good for continued service, and asked them why he needed to change it. His warranty was honored.

 

[Pelican]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro
Originally Posted By: Pelican

The company has to prove ONLY ONE thing and that is that one did not follow that which was contracted and that is OCI, this alone puts the owner in breach of contract and voids the warranty. It's a simple contract law not warranty law.


Going by that, they can deny for being 1 mile outside the OCI. I highly doubt that would float in and of itself without showing the oil was the cause due to said condition.


Technically they could, but they are being reasonable, however the warranty is a contract whereby the company guarantees the product in exchange for the owner fulfilling the clauses specified within it (Owners Manual). We know that manufacturers try to get away from their obligations whenever they can, so why give them a legal out?!

 

[DGXR]

Originally Posted By: Hootbro

Most smart people will go with following the OEM recommended OCI while in warranty and expecting warranty coverage.

Also, even AMSOIL will tell you to follow the the OEM recommended OCI while in warranty.


This.

Also the M1 "Annual Protection" may protect your engine up to 1 year or 20,000 miles but the label still says to follow the manufacturer's recommended service intervals. Gee I wonder why. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that recommends 20,000 mile OCI... maybe some European marque with a 17 liter oil pan.

Pinch your pennies after the warranty period has expired. It's simply not worth the mental and financial hardship you are potentially creating for your life.

 

[deven]

Originally Posted By: Brigadier
Originally Posted By: deven
Originally Posted By: Brigadier
From everything I have read, it seems that the days of the extended OCIs are long gone given that GDI is here to stay for the foreseeable future..

I would do 10,000 miles OCI on a GDI engine and not bat an eye doing so.


Well, you can lead a horse to water.......


You also can't teach an old dog new tricks!

 

[dnewton3]

The M/M warranty act is applied by the FTC:
https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0138-auto-warranties-routine-maintenance
and this:
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/businesspersons-guide-federal-warranty-law

When you comply with warranty, the burden of proof of some failure is upon the OEM to show that you somehow caused the problem. When you comply with maintenance and use terms, that pretty much means the OEM will pay and not even fight it.

When you do not comply with warranty conditions, the burden of proof shifts to the consumer. That means the OEM can certainly delay, and perhaps ultimately deny, coverage. That would induce either a fight in arbitration and/or court. Now the burden is upon you to show that your maintenance and/or use did not cause the failure mode.

In the case of extended OCIs, if you have several successive UOAs showing decent and acceptable data, you would have good cause to affirm your choices. This would depend upon the root cause of failure mode.
- It would be unreasonable to think that extending an oil change would cause a crankshaft to snap, or a cam journal retaining bolt to come loose, etc. Certain physical conditions cannot be induced by a lubricant.
- It would be reasonable to consider that extended OCIs MIGHT cause other types of damage; here the evidence would be pertinent to the condition of the lube, wear metals, etc. If all wear metals were low, and contamination were low, and additives not depleted, then you'd still have a very good case for your venture off the reservation.

The real crux of this is time. Because time is money. The OEM, if they want to delay/deny this, has time and cash on their side. You'd still be expected to pay for the loan note while your vehicle sits in limbo awaiting a scheduled litany of hearings and presentations from you and the OEM.

I generally advise against venturing away from warranty conditions while under warranty; the battle can be won, but it's a LONG UPHILL battle that most here would not have the time/money to fight.

 

[Shannow]

It would make more sense IMO to use the cheapest oil that meets the manufacturer's specifications while under warranty and change it when they tell you.

THEN go extended OCIs and the engineering experiment.

 

[demarpaint]

What a lot of people fail to realize is the car maker is in a position of power. If they say claim denied, the car sits and the work doesn't get done until the owner does at his expense everything he has to do to convince the mfg/car dealer otherwise. That might involve hiring an attorney. I say is it worth it? If the answer is yes, and you feel certain the mfg. is going to see it your way go for it. Otherwise wait until the warranty is up, and then go for it.

Or do virtual oil changes that comply with the owners manual, have invoices for them and rest a little easier.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: PWMDMD
Thoughts on a car under warranty and I want to run Amsoil SS 0W-20 and a Fram Ultra filter at extended OCI. Idea is I would get a UOA at the time the MM wanted the oil changed and as long as the UOA comes back in spec stay the course.

Thoughts/opinions please....

My thoughts on this would be to ask: "Why"?

Why would you want to extend OCI on any vehicle if you want what is best for it?

But to answer your question, if something goes wrong, you open yourself up to the possibility of the manufacturer denying your warranty. Which in the real world would not happen and most people never have a catastrophic engine failure under warranty.

Never understood wanting to extend OCI unless for some reason so much mileage was put on a vehicle that oil would need to be changed every month or so if OCI was not extended. One thing for sure, I would not extend it just because someone who wants to sell you their oil product tells you with their oil you can extend it! The manufacturer of your vehicle may NOT agree with that! (snake oil claims)

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Or do virtual oil changes that comply with the owners manual, have invoices for them and rest a little easier.

But then you've got the receipts, as you've paid for the oil.

Why not just comply in the first place ?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Or do virtual oil changes that comply with the owners manual, have invoices for them and rest a little easier.

But then you've got the receipts, as you've paid for the oil.

Why not just comply in the first place ?


That would be the sensible thing to do.. I just tossed that out there.