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How Do Prius Do It? #4756961
05/14/18 12:59 PM
05/14/18 12:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
lovcom Offline OP
lovcom  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
I only put Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil 0-w20 in my car; for reason that this product has a cult following and its performance and protection qualities are "legend".

My Toyota Prius's 1500cc gas engine turns off and on hundreds of times each way as I commute to/from work and home each direction.

My commute is often either in 0F conditions or near 100F conditions season depending. The distance one way is around 11 miles 1/3 freeway, 2/3 city streets.

I would think such conditions hard on the oil, this on & off dance the engine does to save gas.

But Toyota says that this does not mean the car is in severe service usage, and I can keep on going 10,000 miles between changes.

There are many who have similar driving conditions on their Prius too, who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

Ok how does Toyota design a Hybrid that manages MPG by turning on and off the gas engine yet does not shorten the life of the engine? Someone once told me that Prius engines have a pre-oiler...but I have not found any source to back this up.

Ideas?


2014 Toyota Prius C, City 62 MPG, Hwy 50 MPG.
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756973
05/14/18 01:07 PM
05/14/18 01:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
How does anyone do stop-start? It's not new tech, and some of the non-hybrids with stop=start cycle far more often than a Prius.
Quote:
who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

ORLY Let me google that for you
https://www.google.com/search?q=prius+excessive+oil+consumption


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756975
05/14/18 01:09 PM
05/14/18 01:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 766
Ohio
hallstevenson Offline
hallstevenson  Offline
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 766
Ohio
In the case of this frequent, automatic stop/start, Toyota obviously designed the engine with this as it's "normal" operating condition. They probably don't even have a "severe schedule" for the Prius in this case unless you're pulling a trailer in the desert (and I'll bet Toyota says not to tow anyway).

To me, while knowing the 'how' would be interesting, this is a case of trusting what Toyota says. There will be plenty of members here who can't accept this, of course....

Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: hallstevenson] #4756981
05/14/18 01:14 PM
05/14/18 01:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
Originally Posted By: hallstevenson
There will be plenty of members here who can't accept this, of course....


Can't accept what? I'm still trying to figure out what "Prius" (the man, the legend) is doing better or different than literally anyone else. The complex question suggests that they're doing something better or different than other start stop engines.


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756984
05/14/18 01:19 PM
05/14/18 01:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I only put Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil 0-w20 in my car; for reason that this product has a cult following and its performance and protection qualities are "legend".


TGMO reformulated and lost all of it's moly I believe. Other members might have more insight, but it was a flavour of the month a few years ago. It is nothing more than expensive dealer oil now.

Originally Posted By: lovcom

I would think such conditions hard on the oil, this on & off dance the engine does to save gas.

But Toyota says that this does not mean the car is in severe service usage, and I can keep on going 10,000 miles between changes.

There are many who have similar driving conditions on their Prius too, who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

Ok how does Toyota design a Hybrid that manages MPG by turning on and off the gas engine yet does not shorten the life of the engine? Someone once told me that Prius engines have a pre-oiler...but I have not found any source to back this up.

Ideas?


You have provided evidence to contradict your own ideas. We try not to follow manufacturers recommendations here at BITOG but I am always wary about playing tribologist/ automotive engineer. You are trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist, by your own admission. If you are concerned about shearing, step up to a 5W30 if you are out of warranty or don't care. From my research the real concern with stop start is not being hard on oil, but main bearing wear.


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: PeterPolyol] #4756985
05/14/18 01:20 PM
05/14/18 01:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
lovcom Offline OP
lovcom  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
How does anyone do stop-start? It's not new tech, and some of the non-hybrids with stop=start cycle far more often than a Prius.
Quote:
who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

ORLY Let me google that for you
https://www.google.com/search?q=prius+excessive+oil+consumption


The fact that engine start/stop is not new is beyond the scope of the question. Sure, lets stipulate that engine start/stop is not new.

How is ONE instance of a Prius excessively burning oil going to answer the question: How does Toyota do it?

ALL makes have instances of excessively oil burning, but Prius is not know for this.

And since Prius is the most dependable car in the world, how do they do it with an engine that starts and stops hundreds of times on many trips?


2014 Toyota Prius C, City 62 MPG, Hwy 50 MPG.
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756986
05/14/18 01:22 PM
05/14/18 01:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,484
Ontario, Canada
OVERKILL Online content
OVERKILL  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 37,484
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I only put Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil 0-w20 in my car; for reason that this product has a cult following and its performance and protection qualities are "legend".


Which is primarily bovine excrement, it's a group III based thin synthetic propped up with a ton of polymer. There's nothing prestigious about that, despite the mythos.


Originally Posted By: lovcom
But Toyota says that this does not mean the car is in severe service usage, and I can keep on going 10,000 miles between changes.

There are many who have similar driving conditions on their Prius too, who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

Ok how does Toyota design a Hybrid that manages MPG by turning on and off the gas engine yet does not shorten the life of the engine? Someone once told me that Prius engines have a pre-oiler...but I have not found any source to back this up.

Ideas?



It's no different from how anybody else does it and one of the key pieces here is that the ENGINE doesn't accrue 10,000 miles in that interval.

Try monitoring actual engine-on hours.


2018 RAM 1500 Big Horn EcoDiesel
2016 Grand Cherokee SRT
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756987
05/14/18 01:23 PM
05/14/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,872
Phoenix, AZ
Nick1994 Online content
Nick1994  Online Content
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 10,872
Phoenix, AZ
Doesn't sound like rough conditions to me. I think the Prius engine is absicslly just like a generator engine.


2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4L 85k Mobil 1 AFE 0w30 & OEM
2000 Toyota Camry 2.2L 230k Valvoline 5w30 & Fram Ultra
1996 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L 147k Mobil 1 HM 10w40 & Fram Ultra
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: maxdustington] #4756989
05/14/18 01:23 PM
05/14/18 01:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
lovcom Offline OP
lovcom  Offline OP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 708
Chicago, IL
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I only put Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil 0-w20 in my car; for reason that this product has a cult following and its performance and protection qualities are "legend".


TGMO reformulated and lost all of it's moly I believe. Other members might have more insight, but it was a flavour of the month a few years ago. It is nothing more than expensive dealer oil now.

Originally Posted By: lovcom

I would think such conditions hard on the oil, this on & off dance the engine does to save gas.

But Toyota says that this does not mean the car is in severe service usage, and I can keep on going 10,000 miles between changes.

There are many who have similar driving conditions on their Prius too, who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

Ok how does Toyota design a Hybrid that manages MPG by turning on and off the gas engine yet does not shorten the life of the engine? Someone once told me that Prius engines have a pre-oiler...but I have not found any source to back this up.

Ideas?


You have provided evidence to contradict your own ideas. We try not to follow manufacturers recommendations here at BITOG but I am always wary about playing tribologist/ automotive engineer. You are trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist, by your own admission. If you are concerned about shearing, step up to a 5W30 if you are out of warranty or don't care. From my research the real concern with stop start is not being hard on oil, but main bearing wear.



Where do you get that TGMO is/was expensive? I've bought it for years and never paid more than $6 or $7 per quart.

How could I answer my own question, when I never found out HOW Toyota makes an engine that (1) starts and stops very frequently, yet (2) does not seem to cause longevity issues with that engine.

I'm not trying to find a solution...I just want an explanation because I am not an expert. Did you even read my original post?

Last edited by lovcom; 05/14/18 01:25 PM.

2014 Toyota Prius C, City 62 MPG, Hwy 50 MPG.
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756993
05/14/18 01:27 PM
05/14/18 01:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
supton Offline
supton  Offline
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 12,682
NH
I've been reading on this site that startup wear is overblown. Not sure if that is true, but, with a hybrid, it's not like it has all night to drain down. Those bearing surfaces still have an oil film on them, everything is up to temp, and the engine starts super quick. As you say, these cars are racking up the miles anyhow.


2011 Toyota Camry, base, 2.5L/6MT, 169k, hers
2010 Toyota Tundra DC, 4.6L/6AT, 144k, ours
1999 Toyota Camry LE, 2.2L/4AT, 192k, his
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756996
05/14/18 01:30 PM
05/14/18 01:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
Originally Posted By: lovcom
I only put Toyota Synthetic Motor Oil 0-w20 in my car; for reason that this product has a cult following and its performance and protection qualities are "legend".


TGMO reformulated and lost all of it's moly I believe. Other members might have more insight, but it was a flavour of the month a few years ago. It is nothing more than expensive dealer oil now.

Originally Posted By: lovcom

I would think such conditions hard on the oil, this on & off dance the engine does to save gas.

But Toyota says that this does not mean the car is in severe service usage, and I can keep on going 10,000 miles between changes.

There are many who have similar driving conditions on their Prius too, who have 300,000+ miles with no oil burning nor loss of power.

Ok how does Toyota design a Hybrid that manages MPG by turning on and off the gas engine yet does not shorten the life of the engine? Someone once told me that Prius engines have a pre-oiler...but I have not found any source to back this up.

Ideas?


You have provided evidence to contradict your own ideas. We try not to follow manufacturers recommendations here at BITOG but I am always wary about playing tribologist/ automotive engineer. You are trying to find a solution for a problem that does not exist, by your own admission. If you are concerned about shearing, step up to a 5W30 if you are out of warranty or don't care. From my research the real concern with stop start is not being hard on oil, but main bearing wear.



Where do you get that TGMO is/was expensive? I've bought it for years and never paid more than $6 or $7 per quart.

How could I answer my own question, when I never found out HOW Toyota makes an engine that (1) starts and stops very frequently, yet (2) does not seem to cause longevity issues with that engine.

I'm not trying to find a solution...I just want an explanation because I am not an expert. Did you even read my original post?


Well I quoted it, so I obviously read it intently. You got an answer you did not like when you asked for an opinion, now you are upset.

If you are paying $6-7 a quart for a non-boutique oil in the US then you are obviously no expert, lol.


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: maxdustington] #4756997
05/14/18 01:30 PM
05/14/18 01:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,170
Northern Ontario, Canada
Danno Online content
Danno  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,170
Northern Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
TGMO reformulated and lost all of it's moly I believe.


This recent PQIA test would indicate otherwise at 787 ppm moly.

http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html


2016 Sorento SX V6 AWD
2015 KIA RIO SX
2010 Mazda 3 2.0L
2009 Venza V6 AWD
2013 Sonata 2.4L RIP in write-off crash
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756998
05/14/18 01:36 PM
05/14/18 01:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,807
.
Danh Offline
Danh  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,807
.
If I recall correctly, the Prius uses the big battery to spin the engine when in a start/stop mode. This brings the engine up to relatively high rpm before fuel and ignition are introduced. So, while not technically a pre-oiler it does restore oil pressure to bearings and lubrication to cylinder walls and camshafts before much load is placed on the engine. And, as hybrids seem to be hold-outs on the DI craze, fuel dilution isnít an issue either..

Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: lovcom] #4756999
05/14/18 01:37 PM
05/14/18 01:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
PeterPolyol Offline
PeterPolyol  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,385
toronto
Originally Posted By: lovcom

The fact that engine start/stop is not new is beyond the scope of the question. Sure, lets stipulate that engine start/stop is not new.

The complex question? In order to answer your question, you need to remove the part that makes it a complex question, that means all the presuppositions and suggestions that are presented as fact in the question.

Quote:
How is ONE instance of a Prius excessively burning oil going to answer the question: How does Toyota do it?

ONE instance? lol If the oil consumption thing didn't make you feel uneasy, you wouldn't need to lie to yourself and then project that onto me smile Prius oil burning is neither new, unknown or a singular occurrence.

Quote:

ALL makes have instances of excessively oil burning, but Prius is not know for this.

According to whom? I gave you some really basic evidence there to the contrary. Unless all those people are lying, including board members on here over the years...........


Quote:

And since Prius is the most dependable car in the world, how do they do it with an engine that starts and stops hundreds of times on many trips?

Okay, 'most dependable car in the world' is clearly (the expected) fanciful bully's hit one would expect from someone as fanatical as yourself, but you know you can't possible make such a proclamation with any crediblity what-so-ever. Decently trouble free car, plenty of issues and recalls and without a doubt NOT the "most dependable car in the world". But that's the kind of ego-stroking nonsense I'm trying to expose ITT.




I still don't understand what your 'question' is:
-How can a Prius travel 300K?
-How does an low-output ICE supported by 2 electric motors possible hold together?
-How does the prius survive engine stopping and starting in the aforementioned conditions vs ????????????

Is there a stop-start engine that fails because of it that you're comparing the prius engine to??


"Nobody else has responded to you. Nobody has defended your position. Perhaps that's a clue"
Re: How Do Prius Do It? [Re: Danno] #4757002
05/14/18 01:39 PM
05/14/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,546
VW Fanboy Island
Originally Posted By: Danno
Originally Posted By: maxdustington
TGMO reformulated and lost all of it's moly I believe.


This recent PQIA test would indicate otherwise at 787 ppm moly.

http://pqiadata.org/Toyota_0W20.html


It lost all popularity on here for some reason after being #1 0W20 on BITOG for a while.

Remember the Caterham Blend ?

It is either PAO or moly that gets cut when oils are reformulated, which angers the BITOG gods. We must sacrifice virgin oil filters to appease them.

Last edited by maxdustington; 05/14/18 01:51 PM.

03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
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