Amsoil Signature Series dark after only 2 weeks

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JAG

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Two weeks ago, I put in a 50/50 mix of Amsoil Signature Series 10W-30 & 5W-20. I also added 0.36 qt Hy-per Lube Zinc Replacement (polymer ester). Engine is the 2.3L Ford Ranger with 92k miles. Bought it used with 72k miles and it had two oil changes of Mobil 1 0W-20 EP prior to the use of Amsoil. The oil already looks as dark as Mobil 0W-20 EP used to look after many thousands of miles. I’ve done high temperature tests on both oils and the Amsoil did not darken in color more than Mobil 1, so I don’t think the rapid darkening of the oil in my engine is due to a response to the engine temperatures. I think it has dissolved deposits due to the combination of the potent detergents and dispersants in the Amsoil as well as the ester in it and in the Hy-per Lube. I will be changing this oil early and adding the same mix.
 
Did you premix the 10w and 5w oil before pouring the in the engine? If not it was the 10w and 5w oils wrestling with each other and knocking sludge loose like a couple of teen age boys in a sheetrock room.
smile.gif


I thought M1 was a good cleaning oil but i guess not. I have seen posts of people claiming that the first time they used pup after running m1 their oil turned black fast.

Might have been varnished up real good and is just getting cleaned.
 
Originally Posted By: simple_gifts
What is "early?"


Not sure yet but maybe 2k to 3k miles. In case it is solubizing deposits, I want to get it out early enough to avoid it getting overloaded and causing it to start to re-deposit.
 
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda
Did you premix the 10w and 5w oil before pouring the in the engine? If not it was the 10w and 5w oils wrestling with each other and knocking sludge loose like a couple of teen age boys in a sheetrock room.
smile.gif


I thought M1 was a good cleaning oil but i guess not. I have seen posts of people claiming that the first time they used pup after running m1 their oil turned black fast.

Might have been varnished up real good and is just getting cleaned.



Oil colour means next to nothing. Certain additives change colour when exposed to heat which will rapidly change the appearance of the oil. Reactions with combustion byproducts can also yield the same effect.

Given the OP used an additive, that throws any theories that could be tabled about the differences between the two lubes out the window, as that's another variable in the mix.
 
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda
Did you premix the 10w and 5w oil before pouring the in the engine? If not it was the 10w and 5w oils wrestling with each other and knocking sludge loose like a couple of teen age boys in a sheetrock room.
smile.gif


I thought M1 was a good cleaning oil but i guess not. I have seen posts of people claiming that the first time they used pup after running m1 their oil turned black fast.

Might have been varnished up real good and is just getting cleaned.


Haha, no I did not pre-mix and I don’t believe the wrestling match would occur.

I did some tests with some oils to determine their ability to dissolve varnish deposits consisting of oxidized vegetable oil. Surface temperatures varied between ambient and around 175F. Mobil 1 0W-20 EP had notably less ability to disoolve the deposits than Amsoil Signature Series 0W-20, Redline 5W-30, and Mobil 1 0W-40. Mobil 1 0W-20 EP did not soften or dissolve the deposits. It was like it couldn’t “get into” the deposit.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda
Did you premix the 10w and 5w oil before pouring the in the engine? If not it was the 10w and 5w oils wrestling with each other and knocking sludge loose like a couple of teen age boys in a sheetrock room.
smile.gif


I thought M1 was a good cleaning oil but i guess not. I have seen posts of people claiming that the first time they used pup after running m1 their oil turned black fast.

Might have been varnished up real good and is just getting cleaned.



Oil colour means next to nothing. Certain additives change colour when exposed to heat which will rapidly change the appearance of the oil. Reactions with combustion byproducts can also yield the same effect.

Given the OP used an additive, that throws any theories that could be tabled about the differences between the two lubes out the window, as that's another variable in the mix.

By the way, the Hy-per Lube additive is water-clear and stays that way for a long time when exposed to heat.
 
Pure 5w30 Ams SS got dark in 100mi. Same thing woth 0w20. Oil color means nothing
 
Does fuel dilution help contribute to oil changing color at all?

My last SHORT (2500mile) winter OCI on old formula Amsoil SS 5W-20 smelled so strongly of VPower that I was tempted to dump it into the fuel tank!
lol.gif
(and it was tar colored as well
wink.gif
)
It could not have been dirt/sludge/varnish (but maybe 'soot'?) since this car only had 8K miles on it at the time of that change, and already had 3 previous OCIs including the factory fill.

I also added 6 ounces of the ZRA to my current fill, so I will see what it does at the next winter OCI drain.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Originally Posted By: danez_yoda
Did you premix the 10w and 5w oil before pouring the in the engine? If not it was the 10w and 5w oils wrestling with each other and knocking sludge loose like a couple of teen age boys in a sheetrock room.
smile.gif


I thought M1 was a good cleaning oil but i guess not. I have seen posts of people claiming that the first time they used pup after running m1 their oil turned black fast.

Might have been varnished up real good and is just getting cleaned.


Haha, no I did not pre-mix and I don’t believe the wrestling match would occur.

I did some tests with some oils to determine their ability to dissolve varnish deposits consisting of oxidized vegetable oil. Surface temperatures varied between ambient and around 175F. Mobil 1 0W-20 EP had notably less ability to disoolve the deposits than Amsoil Signature Series 0W-20, Redline 5W-30, and Mobil 1 0W-40. Mobil 1 0W-20 EP did not soften or dissolve the deposits. It was like it couldn’t “get into” the deposit.


Luckily most engines don't have oxidized vegetable oil in them to worry about???
21.gif


If you feel this approach has relevance, I'd suggest some byproducts of actual engine oil. Do you have access to any?

I might find Dawn to be more effective at dissolving candle wax than Sunlight. But since that isn't the intended purpose for either of them, it doesn't tell me a whole heck of a lot about how well they work on my dishes.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG

By the way, the Hy-per Lube additive is water-clear and stays that way for a long time when exposed to heat.


And you tested this exposing it to combustion by-products while mixed with two different engines oils in a controlled experiment before? There are a lot more variables than heat in play here.
 
Could a chemical reaction between the additive you used and the additives in the oil have caused that ? Original color of the additive isn't indicative of the resulting color either, I don't think.
 
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Does fuel dilution help contribute to oil changing color at all?

My last SHORT (2500mile) winter OCI on old formula Amsoil SS 5W-20 smelled so strongly of VPower that I was tempted to dump it into the fuel tank!
lol.gif
(and it was tar colored as well
wink.gif
)
It could not have been dirt/sludge/varnish (but maybe 'soot'?) since this car only had 8K miles on it at the time of that change, and already had 3 previous OCIs including the factory fill.

I also added 6 ounces of the ZRA to my current fill, so I will see what it does at the next winter OCI drain.


Yes, combustion byproducts that get by the rings, volatized oil components sucked through the PVC, mixed with fuel and burned that then gets mixed into what gets by the rings, partially burned HC's....etc. This all has the ability to have an effect on oil appearance. Toss an additive in the mix and you've got even more variables in play.
 
Originally Posted By: hallstevenson
Could a chemical reaction between the additive you used and the additives in the oil have caused that ? Original color of the additive isn't indicative of the resulting color either, I don't think.


Yes. Exactly.
 
Vegetable oil varnish is not as ideal as testing on motor oil varnish or combustion by-products but it has some similarities to the former. They are both polar, oxidized, and polymerized deposits. Molecular species distributions are different but the similarity is in the difficulty in penetrating/solubizing the substance in motor oils or base oils. Detergents and dispersants have polar parts that are attracted to deposits. Likewise with polar base oils, such as esters. PAO is the least polar of common base oils used and they are least capable of solubizing polar molecules/deposits. M1 0W-20 EP has a lot of PAO in it and apparently, the rest of the base oils and additives are not potent solubizers. As said before, Mobil 1 0W-40 was able to slowly solubize the deposit. It has a different detergent package and a higher concentration of it than M1 0W-20 EP does. It also has an amount of ester that is easily detectable in virgin oxidation tests. M1 0W-20 EP does not share that trait.

I plan to do more testing, using varnish from motor oil in one test type and in another, use a surface that I have burned gasoline on. In testing already conducted, it showed that if the motor oil varnish has not been sufficiently hardened, new motor oil that is the same as what formed the varnish could almost completely solubize the varnish and leave the steel surface free of any visible deposit when wiped with a paper towel. If the varnish is sufficiently hardened, I found nothing that could remove the deposit except for abrasives.
 
It sounds like you are knowledgeable enough to realize the truck had sludge when you bought it. The M1 0w20 did little to clean it but the SS did.

Did you have a look under your valve covers. I'm sure that would tell you how dirty it is inside and what the oil is up against.

Might switch to a lower cost high cleaning oil for a few short OCI to clean it out so you can get the full benefit of Amsoil SS.

Be careful will cleaning too much or you might uncover a few leaks. Some older engines don't leak only because the sludge/varnish is blocking the weepable seal passage.
 
Originally Posted By: JAG
Vegetable oil varnish is not as ideal as testing on motor oil varnish or combustion by-products but it has some similarities to the former. They are both polar, oxidized, and polymerized deposits. Molecular species distributions are different but the similarity is in the difficulty in penetrating/solubizing the substance in motor oils or base oils. Detergents and dispersants have polar parts that are attracted to deposits. Likewise with polar base oils, such as esters. PAO is the least polar of common base oils used and they are least capable of solubizing polar molecules/deposits. M1 0W-20 EP has a lot of PAO in it and apparently, the rest of the base oils and additives are not potent solubizers. As said before, Mobil 1 0W-40 was able to slowly solubize the deposit. It has a different detergent package and a higher concentration of it than M1 0W-20 EP does. It also has an amount of ester that is easily detectable in virgin oxidation tests. M1 0W-20 EP does not share that trait.

I plan to do more testing, using varnish from motor oil in one test type and in another, use a surface that I have burned gasoline on. In testing already conducted, it showed that if the motor oil varnish has not been sufficiently hardened, new motor oil that is the same as what formed the varnish could almost completely solubize the varnish and leave the steel surface free of any visible deposit when wiped with a paper towel. If the varnish is sufficiently hardened, I found nothing that could remove the deposit except for abrasives.


That last bit is consistent with what Shannow has posted about. In particular, one must note that frequent changes to eliminate the suspended contamination is necessary when trying to remove varnish, as the ability for the oil to not only remove from a surface, but retain in suspension, varnish products is quickly depleted.

And yes, PAO, as we well know, has horrific solubility, as does Group III (including GTL). POE is much better in this respect and is, as noted, polar.

I look forward to your testing with actual engine varnish and I would, FWIW, expect any plain-Jane PCMO to be relatively poor at removing varnish when compared to an oil with significant POE in it.Not sure how the well beyond SN/GF-5 spec additive package in the AMSOIL products plays into things here, but that's worth noting as well.

Would also like to, if possible, see how Castrol's 0w-40 compares. We know it has a good slug of PAO in it, so it would be interesting to compare it to your typical SN EC product.
 
Fortunately, I do have some Castrol 0W-40 to test. I have not tested it yet. I used to be more dedicated about getting tests done but lately I do it only when the urge strikes me. I used to precisely weigh the amount of oil used and then at the end of tests, weigh how much is left. My wife thinks it is ridiculous. She probably thinks we ALL here are ridiculous for caring enough about lubrication to be me on this site!

Before I bought the truck, I looked inside the oil fill hole and it was quite clean. Haven’t looked in a while but now I will. The dipstick had no deposits on it and still doesn’t. Pistons in used engines always have deposits to some degree, no matter how clean the rest of the engine is.
 
Just made two varnish deposits from M1 0W-20 EP. The oil did NOT combust. I baked that varnish on pretty hard. There is essentially no liquid oil present anymore. The steel made some pretty colors.
 
JAG, I still have yet to see ANY oil manufacturer that claims that their oil "cleans". Every. single. reference. I can find simply mentions that the oil will: "keep pistons xx% cleaner than industry standards" or "50% greater sludge protection" or "75% more engine protection" etc etc etc.... I have yet to see any oil that mentions that it will actually "clean" varnish or sludge without using a solvent. In the cases where a "new" oil washes some of the old contaminants out, I think this is simply a function of the fact that there is oil that is not already loaded with contaminants washing past some deposits. I'd love it if you could reference ANY industry test which shows an oil that actually REDUCES deposits that are already in-place from another, lower quality oil.

I haven't found any, and I'm pretty sure there's a darn good reason that no oil manufacturer advertises their oils as a "cleaning agent". I'd love to be proven wrong using a scientific method.
 
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