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#4754293 - 05/11/18 02:44 PM Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine
bchannell Offline


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 365
Loc: WV
Ok, let's admit from the start this is overkill. I mean, isn't that why we're here? OK, done with that.

I see, (and use) HDEO oil in my JD tractor with water cooled V twin Kawasaki engine. If you read up on this forum and many others, you'll see that diesel oils are very popular with all sorts of OPE. If you take out folks using staight 30wt oil, which is a very large chunk, then HDEO is the most popular choice. MC oil is not as popular.

BUT, let's complicate things a bit here. Most tractor engines recommend SG, SH, SJ or SL oils, (which really translates to higher ZDDP levels), so why not motorcycle oils. They are high ZDDP, with the proper S rating, able to handle heat, and shear stable. This seems the perfect choice to me. I know there's a lot of overlap in HDEO and MC oils, and a lot of folks use HDEO in their mc, but it just seems MC oil is a better fit for OPE. The friction modifiers are of no particular concern, one way or the other in OPE, Amsoil Small Engine oil is Jaso MA/MA2, and it's recommended for OPE, so isn't Kawasaki oil, Honda oil, Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil 1 etc.

HDEO's are slightly cheaper, but I'm just thinking MC oil is a much better fit. My tractor is water cooled, but for air cooled, I really think it's a better fit.

MC oils have roughtly 2-300ppm more ZDDP, moly, and high detergent numbers, where's the down side?

Am I wrong?


Edited by bchannell (05/11/18 02:48 PM)

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#4754300 - 05/11/18 03:03 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
Reddy45 Offline


Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 2888
Loc: USA
Depends on the type of MC oil. Some "newer" MC oils actually have less ZDDP and have really unremarkable UOAs. There is some good info here: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1883244

Many newer bikes come with catalytic converters and OBD, so protecting emissions equipment is now a priority, effectively requiring oils that are somewhat 'neutered' in the wear protection aspect.

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#4754307 - 05/11/18 03:11 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
mrsilv04 Offline


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 8206
Loc: Illinois
I have 3000+ hours on a Kawasaki v-twin in a John Deere 425 AWS.

The secret? Nothing but Rotella T 10w-30, every 100-125 hours, and a $3 to $4 SuperTech/MicroGard/ProSelect oil filter.

It works, and it costs less than $10 per oil change.

I'm not sure what a boutique MC oil would accomplish, at twice the cost.
_________________________
2004 Silverado - on its 3rd Jasper engine in less than one year.

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#4754339 - 05/11/18 03:56 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: mrsilv04]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2889
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
I have 3000+ hours on a Kawasaki v-twin in a John Deere 425 AWS.

The secret? Nothing but Rotella T 10w-30, every 100-125 hours, and a $3 to $4 SuperTech/MicroGard/ProSelect oil filter.

It works, and it costs less than $10 per oil change.

I'm not sure what a boutique MC oil would accomplish, at twice the cost.


BINGO!

The OP says that HDE oils are slightly cheaper. Really? Not where I live. They much, much cheaper. Any oil with a M/C brand name on it will be two to three times the cost of say, Rotella. I even ran Rotella in two of my four stroke bikes when I had them, a Honda Valkyrie and and a Kawasaki KLR. I also run it in my two Suzuki powered ATVs.

Due to weather temperature extremes, my preference is a 50/50 blend of Rotella 15W40 and 5W30. I also run that in my gas inverter generator and my diesel generator as well as all of my OPE. Been doing it for decades and all of my equipment is fine after many years of service. The diesel has over 6000 hours on it and the Yamaha inverter generator has 1470 hours on it but it's only 5 years old.

Cost is the main reason to use HDEOs rather than boutique oils.

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#4754365 - 05/11/18 04:36 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
bchannell Offline


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 365
Loc: WV
Well, I guess this is what comes from not having a bike for over 30 years.
I did read the specs on Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Amsoil motorcycle oils and none of them have what you would call weak ZDDP numbers.
I honestly did not know any bikes had catalytic converters, (ok pile on, I'm ready).
I will concede, that HDEO's as a class are "cheaper", ... poor choice of words earlier. I really was thinking in terms of a couple of quarts of oil for a tractor, and in that since, I don't really care too much about cost. I mean, anything <$10 quart would be sufficient. So, in that vein, HDEO would rank just over $5/qt syn (ie, Rotella T6), and $12-15/gal for dino. I was also thinking, Valvoline MC is $6.67/qt, and Castrol $6.61/qt, so roughly $1.50/qt more, with Mobil 1 being nearly double, all syn to syn.
I think the thing to hang my hat on is the similarities between HDEO and MC oil and go with that.
I've been using Delo 15w40 and 5w40 in my tractor, with no complaints, but had been doing some reading on Amsoil small engine oil and it's benefits. No, I'm not thinking of using it, I'm not a fan of their marketing scheme. I don't usually buy anything with that kind of marketing. My only concession is I use Redline MT90 in my Tacoma 5 speed, but it used to be sold at Oreillys.

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#4754382 - 05/11/18 05:07 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
Kamele0N Offline


Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 2005
Loc: Slovenia
Or you can also use Tractor STOU oils instead of "HDEO"...

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4703353/2
_________________________
2011 Hyundai i30 1.4 CVVT Shell Helix Ultra 5w40
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD various 10w40

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#4754451 - 05/11/18 07:04 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4231
Loc: Taiwan
Cost already covered.

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle) so getting them would seem to be another reason not to use motorcycle oil.

The fact that people get away with HDEO's in shared sump motorcycles suggests it often isn't a very important factor though.

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#4754459 - 05/11/18 07:12 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Ducked]
boraticus Offline


Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 2889
Loc: Canada
Friction modifiers in HDEO? I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on jugs of Rotella HDEO?

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#4754510 - 05/11/18 08:14 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: boraticus]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4231
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Friction modifiers in HDEO? I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on jugs of Rotella HDEO?


Dunno. I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on anything. What does the friction modifier label look like?

Is that necessarily the same as the API "Energy Conserving" mark thing? I'd have thought not.


Edited by Ducked (05/11/18 08:21 PM)

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#4754627 - 05/11/18 10:06 PM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Ducked]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 5954
Loc: Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle)


No,

Friction modifiers are added to oils that have wet clutch discs in them.

That is why it MUST be added to gear oil used in posi rear differentials.
_________________________
"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4754710 - 05/12/18 01:28 AM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Linctex]
Ducked Offline


Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 4231
Loc: Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle)


No,

Friction modifiers are added to oils that have wet clutch discs in them.

That is why it MUST be added to gear oil used in posi rear differentials.


From a quick scan (all I have time for right now) of this

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30336/friction-modifiers-use

the term covers compounds designed to (roughly) increase friction (as you describe above) and compounds designed to reduce friction and improve fuel economy.

So it apparently depends.

The latter will be especially important in skinny engine oils, but I dunno if the use is restricted to skinny engine oils.

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#4754785 - 05/12/18 07:19 AM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
cronk Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1279
Loc: Watertown, New York
Originally Posted By: bchannell
Well, I guess this is what comes from not having a bike for over 30 years.
I did read the specs on Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Amsoil motorcycle oils and none of them have what you would call weak ZDDP numbers.
I honestly did not know any bikes had catalytic converters, (ok pile on, I'm ready).
I will concede, that HDEO's as a class are "cheaper", ... poor choice of words earlier. I really was thinking in terms of a couple of quarts of oil for a tractor, and in that since, I don't really care too much about cost. I mean, anything <$10 quart would be sufficient. So, in that vein, HDEO would rank just over $5/qt syn (ie, Rotella T6), and $12-15/gal for dino. I was also thinking, Valvoline MC is $6.67/qt, and Castrol $6.61/qt, so roughly $1.50/qt more, with Mobil 1 being nearly double, all syn to syn.
I think the thing to hang my hat on is the similarities between HDEO and MC oil and go with that.
I've been using Delo 15w40 and 5w40 in my tractor, with no complaints, but had been doing some reading on Amsoil small engine oil and it's benefits. No, I'm not thinking of using it, I'm not a fan of their marketing scheme. I don't usually buy anything with that kind of marketing. My only concession is I use Redline MT90 in my Tacoma 5 speed, but it used to be sold at Oreillys.


The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell.
_________________________
1998 GMC C1500
2003 Chevy Cavalier
2011 Nissan Quest
1986 Pontiac Trans Am
1940 Ford 9N Tractor
Amsoil lubes and filters!

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#4754798 - 05/12/18 07:32 AM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: cronk]
krismoriah72 Offline


Registered: 02/16/09
Posts: 1485
Loc: wv

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#4754889 - 05/12/18 09:29 AM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: cronk]
bchannell Offline


Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 365
Loc: WV
The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell. [/quote]

You are correct, the small engine oil was $39/gal, which isn't all that much, and I do think Amsoil makes good oil. I'm just not into their type of marketing. They have every right to sell however they want, I respect that, but it just somehow has the feel of Amway, or Tupperware, or whatever, and, at least to me, cheapens their image. Let's face it, it's designed to maximize profits for all involved, which, as I said, is their perfect right, it's just not for me. Put it in the store where I can go pick up a jug when I need it and I'm probably a buyer.

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#4754991 - 05/12/18 11:30 AM Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell]
cronk Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 1279
Loc: Watertown, New York
Originally Posted By: bchannell
The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell.


You are correct, the small engine oil was $39/gal, which isn't all that much, and I do think Amsoil makes good oil. I'm just not into their type of marketing. They have every right to sell however they want, I respect that, but it just somehow has the feel of Amway, or Tupperware, or whatever, and, at least to me, cheapens their image. Let's face it, it's designed to maximize profits for all involved, which, as I said, is their perfect right, it's just not for me. Put it in the store where I can go pick up a jug when I need it and I'm probably a buyer.[/quote]

PC price is $29/gal
_________________________
1998 GMC C1500
2003 Chevy Cavalier
2011 Nissan Quest
1986 Pontiac Trans Am
1940 Ford 9N Tractor
Amsoil lubes and filters!

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