Recent Topics
99 honda accord
by FT92. 10/16/18 02:26 AM
On The TD42 Safari.
by Silk. 10/16/18 02:23 AM
High Fuel Dilution
by Spetz. 10/15/18 11:52 PM
Northern Lights 6K Genset Rot T4 200Hrs OCI
by nicklx. 10/15/18 11:00 PM
2015 VW JETTA 1.8T TOP OF PISTON PHOTO
by Kjmack. 10/15/18 09:48 PM
Suggestions for 2009 Toyota Highlander
by suedebskillz. 10/15/18 09:38 PM
Updates to my 2002 3/4 Ton Chevy
by ls1mike. 10/15/18 08:43 PM
2019 VW Passat Reveal China
by gregk24. 10/15/18 08:16 PM
Subaru supercool is there an alternative
by urdrwho. 10/15/18 08:10 PM
Generic Toner
by willbur. 10/15/18 07:50 PM
1994 Jaguar XJS Tuneup Questions.
by Serolim. 10/15/18 07:49 PM
Pickup Truck Door Freezing Shut
by CCI. 10/15/18 07:01 PM
Help with window well drainage
by Klutch9. 10/15/18 06:31 PM
Nissan Murano Owners
by RazorsEdge. 10/15/18 06:27 PM
Dealing with my younger sister
by skyactiv. 10/15/18 05:58 PM
Jeep TJ Running Rough Before & After Repairs
by Auae85. 10/15/18 05:54 PM
RIP Paul Allen
by PimTac. 10/15/18 05:34 PM
Matches and gasoline
by jhellwig. 10/15/18 05:14 PM
PARTS MASTER #61334 CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 10/15/18 04:38 PM
CHAMP PH 2867 CUT OPEN
by 53' Stude. 10/15/18 04:32 PM
Newest Members
hidesertcouncil, suedebskillz, TheDirtyScreech, briantn, AL5M
66219 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
37 registered members (buck91, alarmguy, Char Baby, 87sammy, Chris142, crainholio, 2 invisible), 1,000 guests, and 35 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics292,024
Posts4,872,745
Members66,219
Most Online2,440
Oct 15th, 2018
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine #4754293
05/11/18 02:44 PM
05/11/18 02:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
bchannell Offline OP
bchannell  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
Ok, let's admit from the start this is overkill. I mean, isn't that why we're here? OK, done with that.

I see, (and use) HDEO oil in my JD tractor with water cooled V twin Kawasaki engine. If you read up on this forum and many others, you'll see that diesel oils are very popular with all sorts of OPE. If you take out folks using staight 30wt oil, which is a very large chunk, then HDEO is the most popular choice. MC oil is not as popular.

BUT, let's complicate things a bit here. Most tractor engines recommend SG, SH, SJ or SL oils, (which really translates to higher ZDDP levels), so why not motorcycle oils. They are high ZDDP, with the proper S rating, able to handle heat, and shear stable. This seems the perfect choice to me. I know there's a lot of overlap in HDEO and MC oils, and a lot of folks use HDEO in their mc, but it just seems MC oil is a better fit for OPE. The friction modifiers are of no particular concern, one way or the other in OPE, Amsoil Small Engine oil is Jaso MA/MA2, and it's recommended for OPE, so isn't Kawasaki oil, Honda oil, Valvoline, Castrol, Mobil 1 etc.

HDEO's are slightly cheaper, but I'm just thinking MC oil is a much better fit. My tractor is water cooled, but for air cooled, I really think it's a better fit.

MC oils have roughtly 2-300ppm more ZDDP, moly, and high detergent numbers, where's the down side?

Am I wrong?

Last edited by bchannell; 05/11/18 02:48 PM.
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754300
05/11/18 03:03 PM
05/11/18 03:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,213
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Reddy45 Offline
Reddy45  Offline
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,213
Where the wind comes sweepin'
Depends on the type of MC oil. Some "newer" MC oils actually have less ZDDP and have really unremarkable UOAs. There is some good info here: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1883244

Many newer bikes come with catalytic converters and OBD, so protecting emissions equipment is now a priority, effectively requiring oils that are somewhat 'neutered' in the wear protection aspect.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754307
05/11/18 03:11 PM
05/11/18 03:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,393
Illinois
mrsilv04 Offline
mrsilv04  Offline
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,393
Illinois
I have 3000+ hours on a Kawasaki v-twin in a John Deere 425 AWS.

The secret? Nothing but Rotella T 10w-30, every 100-125 hours, and a $3 to $4 SuperTech/MicroGard/ProSelect oil filter.

It works, and it costs less than $10 per oil change.

I'm not sure what a boutique MC oil would accomplish, at twice the cost.


2004 Silverado - on its 3rd Jasper engine in less than one year.
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: mrsilv04] #4754339
05/11/18 03:56 PM
05/11/18 03:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,933
Canada
boraticus Offline
boraticus  Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,933
Canada
Originally Posted By: mrsilv04
I have 3000+ hours on a Kawasaki v-twin in a John Deere 425 AWS.

The secret? Nothing but Rotella T 10w-30, every 100-125 hours, and a $3 to $4 SuperTech/MicroGard/ProSelect oil filter.

It works, and it costs less than $10 per oil change.

I'm not sure what a boutique MC oil would accomplish, at twice the cost.


BINGO!

The OP says that HDE oils are slightly cheaper. Really? Not where I live. They much, much cheaper. Any oil with a M/C brand name on it will be two to three times the cost of say, Rotella. I even ran Rotella in two of my four stroke bikes when I had them, a Honda Valkyrie and and a Kawasaki KLR. I also run it in my two Suzuki powered ATVs.

Due to weather temperature extremes, my preference is a 50/50 blend of Rotella 15W40 and 5W30. I also run that in my gas inverter generator and my diesel generator as well as all of my OPE. Been doing it for decades and all of my equipment is fine after many years of service. The diesel has over 6000 hours on it and the Yamaha inverter generator has 1470 hours on it but it's only 5 years old.

Cost is the main reason to use HDEOs rather than boutique oils.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754365
05/11/18 04:36 PM
05/11/18 04:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
bchannell Offline OP
bchannell  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
Well, I guess this is what comes from not having a bike for over 30 years.
I did read the specs on Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Amsoil motorcycle oils and none of them have what you would call weak ZDDP numbers.
I honestly did not know any bikes had catalytic converters, (ok pile on, I'm ready).
I will concede, that HDEO's as a class are "cheaper", ... poor choice of words earlier. I really was thinking in terms of a couple of quarts of oil for a tractor, and in that since, I don't really care too much about cost. I mean, anything <$10 quart would be sufficient. So, in that vein, HDEO would rank just over $5/qt syn (ie, Rotella T6), and $12-15/gal for dino. I was also thinking, Valvoline MC is $6.67/qt, and Castrol $6.61/qt, so roughly $1.50/qt more, with Mobil 1 being nearly double, all syn to syn.
I think the thing to hang my hat on is the similarities between HDEO and MC oil and go with that.
I've been using Delo 15w40 and 5w40 in my tractor, with no complaints, but had been doing some reading on Amsoil small engine oil and it's benefits. No, I'm not thinking of using it, I'm not a fan of their marketing scheme. I don't usually buy anything with that kind of marketing. My only concession is I use Redline MT90 in my Tacoma 5 speed, but it used to be sold at Oreillys.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754382
05/11/18 05:07 PM
05/11/18 05:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,217
Slovenia EU
Kamele0N Offline
Kamele0N  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 2,217
Slovenia EU
Or you can also use Tractor STOU oils instead of "HDEO"...

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4703353/2


2008 Toyota Yaris 1ND-TV 1.4 D4-D Elf FullTech FE 5w30
1997 Toyota Landcruiser KZJ95 3.0 TD Shell Rimula R6M 10w40
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754451
05/11/18 07:04 PM
05/11/18 07:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Cost already covered.

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle) so getting them would seem to be another reason not to use motorcycle oil.

The fact that people get away with HDEO's in shared sump motorcycles suggests it often isn't a very important factor though.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Ducked] #4754459
05/11/18 07:12 PM
05/11/18 07:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,933
Canada
boraticus Offline
boraticus  Offline
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,933
Canada
Friction modifiers in HDEO? I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on jugs of Rotella HDEO?

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: boraticus] #4754510
05/11/18 08:14 PM
05/11/18 08:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: boraticus
Friction modifiers in HDEO? I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on jugs of Rotella HDEO?


Dunno. I don't recall seeing the friction modifier label on anything. What does the friction modifier label look like?

Is that necessarily the same as the API "Energy Conserving" mark thing? I'd have thought not.

Last edited by Ducked; 05/11/18 08:21 PM.
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Ducked] #4754627
05/11/18 10:06 PM
05/11/18 10:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,405
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,405
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle)


No,

Friction modifiers are added to oils that have wet clutch discs in them.

That is why it MUST be added to gear oil used in posi rear differentials.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: Linctex] #4754710
05/12/18 01:28 AM
05/12/18 01:28 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,765
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: Ducked

Friction modifiers ought to be a good thing in a lawn tractor (and a bad thing in a shared-sump motorcycle)


No,

Friction modifiers are added to oils that have wet clutch discs in them.

That is why it MUST be added to gear oil used in posi rear differentials.


From a quick scan (all I have time for right now) of this

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/30336/friction-modifiers-use

the term covers compounds designed to (roughly) increase friction (as you describe above) and compounds designed to reduce friction and improve fuel economy.

So it apparently depends.

The latter will be especially important in skinny engine oils, but I dunno if the use is restricted to skinny engine oils.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754785
05/12/18 07:19 AM
05/12/18 07:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,310
Watertown, New York
cronk Offline
cronk  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,310
Watertown, New York
Originally Posted By: bchannell
Well, I guess this is what comes from not having a bike for over 30 years.
I did read the specs on Castrol, Valvoline, Mobil 1, and Amsoil motorcycle oils and none of them have what you would call weak ZDDP numbers.
I honestly did not know any bikes had catalytic converters, (ok pile on, I'm ready).
I will concede, that HDEO's as a class are "cheaper", ... poor choice of words earlier. I really was thinking in terms of a couple of quarts of oil for a tractor, and in that since, I don't really care too much about cost. I mean, anything <$10 quart would be sufficient. So, in that vein, HDEO would rank just over $5/qt syn (ie, Rotella T6), and $12-15/gal for dino. I was also thinking, Valvoline MC is $6.67/qt, and Castrol $6.61/qt, so roughly $1.50/qt more, with Mobil 1 being nearly double, all syn to syn.
I think the thing to hang my hat on is the similarities between HDEO and MC oil and go with that.
I've been using Delo 15w40 and 5w40 in my tractor, with no complaints, but had been doing some reading on Amsoil small engine oil and it's benefits. No, I'm not thinking of using it, I'm not a fan of their marketing scheme. I don't usually buy anything with that kind of marketing. My only concession is I use Redline MT90 in my Tacoma 5 speed, but it used to be sold at Oreillys.


The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell.


2008 Ford F350
2003 Chevy Cavalier
2011 Nissan Quest
1986 Pontiac Trans Am
1940 Ford 9N Tractor
Amsoil lubes and filters!
Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: cronk] #4754798
05/12/18 07:32 AM
05/12/18 07:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,579
wv
krismoriah72 Offline
krismoriah72  Offline
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,579
wv

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: cronk] #4754889
05/12/18 09:29 AM
05/12/18 09:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
bchannell Offline OP
bchannell  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 382
WV
The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell. [/quote]

You are correct, the small engine oil was $39/gal, which isn't all that much, and I do think Amsoil makes good oil. I'm just not into their type of marketing. They have every right to sell however they want, I respect that, but it just somehow has the feel of Amway, or Tupperware, or whatever, and, at least to me, cheapens their image. Let's face it, it's designed to maximize profits for all involved, which, as I said, is their perfect right, it's just not for me. Put it in the store where I can go pick up a jug when I need it and I'm probably a buyer.

Re: Why HDEO instead of Motorcycle oil for twin engine [Re: bchannell] #4754991
05/12/18 11:30 AM
05/12/18 11:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,310
Watertown, New York
cronk Offline
cronk  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,310
Watertown, New York
Originally Posted By: bchannell
The Amsoil Small engine oil is more affordable than you probably think. At the PC price, it is cheaper than Valvoline dino motorcycle oil is at my local parts store!
A lot of times, it's all about finding a good dealer. There are a lot of good ones out there. Just find one that is willing to help you save money and understand the product, not one that's just trying to sell, sell, sell.


You are correct, the small engine oil was $39/gal, which isn't all that much, and I do think Amsoil makes good oil. I'm just not into their type of marketing. They have every right to sell however they want, I respect that, but it just somehow has the feel of Amway, or Tupperware, or whatever, and, at least to me, cheapens their image. Let's face it, it's designed to maximize profits for all involved, which, as I said, is their perfect right, it's just not for me. Put it in the store where I can go pick up a jug when I need it and I'm probably a buyer.[/quote]

PC price is $29/gal


2008 Ford F350
2003 Chevy Cavalier
2011 Nissan Quest
1986 Pontiac Trans Am
1940 Ford 9N Tractor
Amsoil lubes and filters!

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™