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Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? #4751424
05/08/18 06:37 PM
05/08/18 06:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
ZZman Offline OP
ZZman  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
It appears to me when looking at UOA's that detergent levels have been reduced. I know more Magnesium is being used with Calcium and such but it seems like the new formulations are around 2000.

How are the higher standards being met with less?


2003 Mercury Grand Marquis. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2008 Sebring Hardtop convertible. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2006 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT. Amsoil Metric 10w-40
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751428
05/08/18 06:40 PM
05/08/18 06:40 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,036
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,036
Idaho
Boron.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751435
05/08/18 06:49 PM
05/08/18 06:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,420
Great Lakes
Quattro Pete Offline
Quattro Pete  Offline
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 36,420
Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: ZZman
How are the higher standards being met with less?
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


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'15 Q5 3.0T (Edge 5W-40)
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Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751437
05/08/18 06:51 PM
05/08/18 06:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,118
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,118
OH
Magnesium is a more effective detergency add than calcium.


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Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4751438
05/08/18 06:51 PM
05/08/18 06:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
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Posts: 5,767
...
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ZZman
How are the higher standards being met with less?
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.




Yep.


2017 Mazda CX-5 GT.

Valvoline Modern Engine 0w20
Mobil 1 EP 108A
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: Quattro Pete] #4751440
05/08/18 06:55 PM
05/08/18 06:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
ZZman Offline OP
ZZman  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?


2003 Mercury Grand Marquis. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2008 Sebring Hardtop convertible. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2006 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT. Amsoil Metric 10w-40
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: CT8] #4751442
05/08/18 06:58 PM
05/08/18 06:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
ZZman Offline OP
ZZman  Offline OP
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 6,001
Michigan
Originally Posted By: CT8
Boron.


I think boron is a anti wear additive first and a minor detergent. It is usually in small amounts in most oils too.


2003 Mercury Grand Marquis. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2008 Sebring Hardtop convertible. PP HM 5w-30 and Fram Ultra
2006 Kawasaki Vulcan 900 LT. Amsoil Metric 10w-40
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751443
05/08/18 07:01 PM
05/08/18 07:01 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?



Ask the labs.


2017 Mazda CX-5 GT.

Valvoline Modern Engine 0w20
Mobil 1 EP 108A
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751499
05/08/18 08:03 PM
05/08/18 08:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,083
pa
benjy Offline
benjy  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,083
pa
i am guessing theres a lot that typical simple cheap oil analysis does not show!!

Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: fdcg27] #4751514
05/08/18 08:12 PM
05/08/18 08:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,103
Virginia
bbhero Offline
bbhero  Offline
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 5,103
Virginia
I think fdcg27 has hit this on the head.

And Valvoline has added Boron to help a bit to help with cleaning and detergency. But mainly obviously magnesium is tasked for this.


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Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: bbhero] #4751531
05/08/18 08:21 PM
05/08/18 08:21 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
Originally Posted By: bbhero
I think fdcg27 has hit this on the head.

And Valvoline has added Boron to help a bit to help with cleaning and detergency. But mainly obviously magnesium is tasked for this.



Yep he is right. Boron is a very versatile additive.


2017 Mazda CX-5 GT.

Valvoline Modern Engine 0w20
Mobil 1 EP 108A
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751563
05/08/18 08:48 PM
05/08/18 08:48 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 618
Canada
nap Offline
nap  Offline
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 618
Canada
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?


A quick look at the periodic table doesn’t suggest many plausible options.

Not to mention that advertising wouldn’t miss mentioning some novel, unique something that makes the oil “special”.

Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman] #4751573
05/08/18 08:53 PM
05/08/18 08:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,926
Midwest
volk06 Offline
volk06  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,926
Midwest
It's been stated on here that magnesium retains TBN better and is more effective than calcium, somewhere around the magnitude of 2 times. So roughly, 750ppm magnesium is equivalent to 1500ppm Calcium.


2011 F-150 Ecoboost
2012 Focus S
2001 Taurus
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: nap] #4751577
05/08/18 08:54 PM
05/08/18 08:54 PM
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
PimTac Offline
PimTac  Offline
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 5,767
...
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?


A quick look at the periodic table doesn’t suggest many plausible options.

Not to mention that advertising wouldn’t miss mentioning some novel, unique something that makes the oil “special”.




You won’t find them on the periodic table and since they are proprietary you likely won’t find out about them from the company.

There are lots of informative papers and articles here on BITOG. Try doing a search.


2017 Mazda CX-5 GT.

Valvoline Modern Engine 0w20
Mobil 1 EP 108A
Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: PimTac] #4751606
05/08/18 09:23 PM
05/08/18 09:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,023
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,023
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: PimTac
You won’t find them on the periodic table and since they are proprietary you likely won’t find out about them from the company.

Well yes you will of course, if you don't find them there you won't find them anywhere. Where you may not find them however is on an ICP or AA analysis given the limitations those methods have with non-metals (and some metals).

But even if you do detect them it would only be the elements and not compounds.


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1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
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