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#4751424 - 05/08/18 06:37 PM Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness?
ZZman Offline


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 5903
Loc: Michigan
It appears to me when looking at UOA's that detergent levels have been reduced. I know more Magnesium is being used with Calcium and such but it seems like the new formulations are around 2000.

How are the higher standards being met with less?
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#4751428 - 05/08/18 06:40 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 11486
Loc: Idaho
Boron.
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#4751435 - 05/08/18 06:49 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
Quattro Pete Offline


Registered: 10/30/02
Posts: 36092
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally Posted By: ZZman
How are the higher standards being met with less?
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.
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#4751437 - 05/08/18 06:51 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
fdcg27 Offline


Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 15908
Loc: OH
Magnesium is a more effective detergency add than calcium.
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#4751438 - 05/08/18 06:51 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: Quattro Pete]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4942
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: ZZman
How are the higher standards being met with less?
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.




Yep.
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#4751440 - 05/08/18 06:55 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: Quattro Pete]
ZZman Offline


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 5903
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?
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#4751442 - 05/08/18 06:58 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: CT8]
ZZman Offline


Registered: 03/17/08
Posts: 5903
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: CT8
Boron.


I think boron is a anti wear additive first and a minor detergent. It is usually in small amounts in most oils too.
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#4751443 - 05/08/18 07:01 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4942
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?



Ask the labs.
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#4751499 - 05/08/18 08:03 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
benjy Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 926
Loc: pa
i am guessing theres a lot that typical simple cheap oil analysis does not show!!

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#4751514 - 05/08/18 08:12 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: fdcg27]
bbhero Offline


Registered: 03/20/15
Posts: 4835
Loc: Virginia
I think fdcg27 has hit this on the head.

And Valvoline has added Boron to help a bit to help with cleaning and detergency. But mainly obviously magnesium is tasked for this.
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#4751531 - 05/08/18 08:21 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: bbhero]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4942
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: bbhero
I think fdcg27 has hit this on the head.

And Valvoline has added Boron to help a bit to help with cleaning and detergency. But mainly obviously magnesium is tasked for this.



Yep he is right. Boron is a very versatile additive.
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#4751563 - 05/08/18 08:48 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
nap Offline


Registered: 04/27/18
Posts: 555
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?


A quick look at the periodic table doesn’t suggest many plausible options.

Not to mention that advertising wouldn’t miss mentioning some novel, unique something that makes the oil “special”.

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#4751573 - 05/08/18 08:53 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: ZZman]
volk06 Offline


Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 4920
Loc: Midwest
It's been stated on here that magnesium retains TBN better and is more effective than calcium, somewhere around the magnitude of 2 times. So roughly, 750ppm magnesium is equivalent to 1500ppm Calcium.
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#4751577 - 05/08/18 08:54 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: nap]
PimTac Offline


Registered: 03/04/17
Posts: 4942
Loc: Soviet State of Washington
Originally Posted By: nap
Originally Posted By: ZZman
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
New class of additives, not necessarily showing up in traditional VOAs.


Like what? Should labs be testing for them?


A quick look at the periodic table doesn’t suggest many plausible options.

Not to mention that advertising wouldn’t miss mentioning some novel, unique something that makes the oil “special”.




You won’t find them on the periodic table and since they are proprietary you likely won’t find out about them from the company.

There are lots of informative papers and articles here on BITOG. Try doing a search.
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#4751606 - 05/08/18 09:23 PM Re: Lower detergent levels but more cleanliness? [Re: PimTac]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 9668
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: PimTac
You won’t find them on the periodic table and since they are proprietary you likely won’t find out about them from the company.

Well yes you will of course, if you don't find them there you won't find them anywhere. Where you may not find them however is on an ICP or AA analysis given the limitations those methods have with non-metals (and some metals).

But even if you do detect them it would only be the elements and not compounds.
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