Which "Full Synthetic" oils are Group 4 PAO?
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Looking at a stat sheet to try and determine PAO content is like throwing darts in jello, it just is no fun at all. I looked at your links, I'm not sure what they have to do with Amsoil. At one time Amsoil let us know the were PAO because they were PAO. I certainly hope they return to that.
This is a perennial thread topic here.
The best answer I can give you is who knows and who cares?
Matters not at all in a finished oil in any way you or I would notice.
All of the M1 OW-20 grade oils have significant Grp IV content and this can be seen in their superior W end performance as well as their low NOACK numbers if it matters to you.
The best answer I can give you is who knows and who cares?
Matters not at all in a finished oil in any way you or I would notice.
All of the M1 OW-20 grade oils have significant Grp IV content and this can be seen in their superior W end performance as well as their low NOACK numbers if it matters to you.
Thank you OVERKILL just trying to point that fact out to burla. Not the first time he won't acknowledge the PAO content in Amsoil SS.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: burla
The last time I posted anything on pour points I was chastised for "playing pour point" games, lol. Which if I'm not mistaken Redine has some of the best if not the best pour points out there. When I have time I will search through some paper out there, I don't have the info categorized but I will find it. Thanks for posting links.
In an oil forum I am just surprised and the lack of enthusiasm for group 4 and 5 oils. When someone is asking about them I would consider telling the poster what he is asking for. Seeing what the PAO/esters have done in my truck and 30 others, one of which posted a video of how the difference sounded in his truck, I can understand why people want to access this info. I have no doubt we will be headed back in that direction with newer standards like you see in transmission fluids going full pao. You see manu's attempting this with Nissan ester, you will see more. The govt is shoving low additives low viscosities down the throat of manu's, there is few places for them to go except PAO/ester.
OP I don't know if I can post Amazon stuff, but google this...
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil (Read more below)
Real 100% fully synthetic group 4 PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefines) base stock
If you are posting pour points to point out cold temperature performance you'll get bugged about it, because it tells very little. However, one of the artifacts of PAO in the base oil blend is a very low pour point. So while it may not result in exemplary CCS/MRV performance, it can tell you a bit about what's in the blend.
I'm quite enthusiastic about certain oils being a "bargain" like the M1 EP/AP sisters and their PAO content. I'm also using Castrol 0w-40 in my JGC because I think it is an excellent oil and one of its features is a significant amount of PAO in the base oil blend.
What you aren't counting on is GTL, which rivals PAO in many respects and has the potential to be produced much cheaper. SOPUS is really the only one pushing it hard right now, but Mobil using it in their FS 0w-40 is, IMHO, a sign of things to come.
I do think you'll see better bases in newer oils. But I don't think that'll include a ton of them switching to PAO. I believe you'll see groups push up with more Group III replacing Group II in conventional oils, making them blends, and you'll see more GTL showing up as it becomes more available. That's JMHO of course.
The last time I posted anything on pour points I was chastised for "playing pour point" games, lol. Which if I'm not mistaken Redine has some of the best if not the best pour points out there. When I have time I will search through some paper out there, I don't have the info categorized but I will find it. Thanks for posting links.
In an oil forum I am just surprised and the lack of enthusiasm for group 4 and 5 oils. When someone is asking about them I would consider telling the poster what he is asking for. Seeing what the PAO/esters have done in my truck and 30 others, one of which posted a video of how the difference sounded in his truck, I can understand why people want to access this info. I have no doubt we will be headed back in that direction with newer standards like you see in transmission fluids going full pao. You see manu's attempting this with Nissan ester, you will see more. The govt is shoving low additives low viscosities down the throat of manu's, there is few places for them to go except PAO/ester.
OP I don't know if I can post Amazon stuff, but google this...
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil (Read more below)
Real 100% fully synthetic group 4 PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefines) base stock
If you are posting pour points to point out cold temperature performance you'll get bugged about it, because it tells very little. However, one of the artifacts of PAO in the base oil blend is a very low pour point. So while it may not result in exemplary CCS/MRV performance, it can tell you a bit about what's in the blend.
I'm quite enthusiastic about certain oils being a "bargain" like the M1 EP/AP sisters and their PAO content. I'm also using Castrol 0w-40 in my JGC because I think it is an excellent oil and one of its features is a significant amount of PAO in the base oil blend.
What you aren't counting on is GTL, which rivals PAO in many respects and has the potential to be produced much cheaper. SOPUS is really the only one pushing it hard right now, but Mobil using it in their FS 0w-40 is, IMHO, a sign of things to come.
I do think you'll see better bases in newer oils. But I don't think that'll include a ton of them switching to PAO. I believe you'll see groups push up with more Group III replacing Group II in conventional oils, making them blends, and you'll see more GTL showing up as it becomes more available. That's JMHO of course.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: burla
Pour Point depressants plus Vii's can achieve good pour point and low noack?
You do not get PAO-level pour points from PPD's, they are used to make wax-containing base oils pass the CCS and MRV requirements for an intended grade. Look at the pour point for any oil we KNOW is PAO-based and then a comparable conventional or group III based oil and that's readily apparent.
NOACK is a whole other topic and will be higher for lighter, lower group based oils VII'd up to meet their visc targets over a higher group based oil that can use slightly heavier bases and less VII. Again, look at the Mobil example blending tables I provided. All of those oils have relatively low NOACK volatility numbers blended using PAO, AN's or POE.
Pour Point depressants plus Vii's can achieve good pour point and low noack?
You do not get PAO-level pour points from PPD's, they are used to make wax-containing base oils pass the CCS and MRV requirements for an intended grade. Look at the pour point for any oil we KNOW is PAO-based and then a comparable conventional or group III based oil and that's readily apparent.
NOACK is a whole other topic and will be higher for lighter, lower group based oils VII'd up to meet their visc targets over a higher group based oil that can use slightly heavier bases and less VII. Again, look at the Mobil example blending tables I provided. All of those oils have relatively low NOACK volatility numbers blended using PAO, AN's or POE.
I'm not sure why you are assuming anything with me and GtL, I am a fan especially with new specs where low hths is desirable. My second vehicle gets 5w30 PUP and likely will as long as I own it. I would have gladly commented on this, but the OP was asking about PAO. Whether PAO is necessary is not really the point of the question as I understand it, the guy was asking for some PAO bases. I have nothing more on this one, good day
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: burla
I'm not sure why you are assuming anything with me and GtL, I am a fan especially with new specs where low hths is desirable. My second vehicle gets 5w30 PUP and likely will as long as I own it. I would have gladly commented on this, but the OP was asking about PAO. Whether PAO is necessary is not really the point of the question as I understand it, the guy was asking for some PAO bases. I have nothing more on this one, good day
because of this comment:
Originally Posted By: burla
I have no doubt we will be headed back in that direction with newer standards like you see in transmission fluids going full pao. You see manu's attempting this with Nissan ester, you will see more. The govt is shoving low additives low viscosities down the throat of manu's, there is few places for them to go except PAO/ester.
Which seems to completely ignore it?
Also, not sure why you are correlating low HTHS and GTL, it is no different than PAO here, and, like I demonstrated earlier, can result in heavier or lighter blends depending on your target. What do you think SOPUS is using in their higher HTHS Euro oils?
I'm not sure why you are assuming anything with me and GtL, I am a fan especially with new specs where low hths is desirable. My second vehicle gets 5w30 PUP and likely will as long as I own it. I would have gladly commented on this, but the OP was asking about PAO. Whether PAO is necessary is not really the point of the question as I understand it, the guy was asking for some PAO bases. I have nothing more on this one, good day
because of this comment:
Originally Posted By: burla
I have no doubt we will be headed back in that direction with newer standards like you see in transmission fluids going full pao. You see manu's attempting this with Nissan ester, you will see more. The govt is shoving low additives low viscosities down the throat of manu's, there is few places for them to go except PAO/ester.
Which seems to completely ignore it?
Also, not sure why you are correlating low HTHS and GTL, it is no different than PAO here, and, like I demonstrated earlier, can result in heavier or lighter blends depending on your target. What do you think SOPUS is using in their higher HTHS Euro oils?
Originally Posted By: burla
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil
^^^THIS stuff would be in my EcoBoost's sump NOW, instead of their (also excellent) D2 REP, IF it were currently available here in the D1G2 form, instead of the 2-3 months from now Blauparts says it will be on their shelves!
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil
^^^THIS stuff would be in my EcoBoost's sump NOW, instead of their (also excellent) D2 REP, IF it were currently available here in the D1G2 form, instead of the 2-3 months from now Blauparts says it will be on their shelves!
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: burla
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil
^^^THIS stuff would be in my EcoBoost's sump NOW, instead of their (also excellent) D2 REP, IF it were currently available here in the D1G2 form, instead of the 2-3 months from now Blauparts says it will be on their shelves!
I do commend Blauparts for updating their Amazon listing for DXG to reflect that their present offering is NOT d1G2...the body of the listing showed a d1 license # but a Q&A item then said they were shipping d1G2. I am also very curious to see when they have the new stuff!
Originally Posted By: burla
Includes: RAVENOL DXG 5W30 Motor Oil
^^^THIS stuff would be in my EcoBoost's sump NOW, instead of their (also excellent) D2 REP, IF it were currently available here in the D1G2 form, instead of the 2-3 months from now Blauparts says it will be on their shelves!
I do commend Blauparts for updating their Amazon listing for DXG to reflect that their present offering is NOT d1G2...the body of the listing showed a d1 license # but a Q&A item then said they were shipping d1G2. I am also very curious to see when they have the new stuff!
Originally Posted By: burla
Since the beginning of this forum the question of is my truck gonna last longer if I use brand a or brand b still hasn't been answered. But some manu's are using lifetime fluids now that are pao, so who I am to toss shade on what they are doing?
Well, exactly. As always, you have to match the fluid to your expectations in some respects, too. If something is going to be trotted out as a lifetime fluid or a long drain oil in a severe application, one had either ensure one has an appropriate fluid or modify intervals, if needed.
My view, at least, is if something things that an SN/GF-5 5w-30 conventional is unsuitable to protect their application, base stock hunting might not be the most appropriate answer to their itch; finding something with more robust specifications might help, and that will probably involve a base stock improvement, but more than that, too. Similarly, with the taxis back in the day running 10,000 km intervals on conventional and being driven to the junkyard, base stock improvements likely wouldn't have helped.
Also, with comments about Nissan ester oil, remember, it's not an ester base stock oil.
Since the beginning of this forum the question of is my truck gonna last longer if I use brand a or brand b still hasn't been answered. But some manu's are using lifetime fluids now that are pao, so who I am to toss shade on what they are doing?
Well, exactly. As always, you have to match the fluid to your expectations in some respects, too. If something is going to be trotted out as a lifetime fluid or a long drain oil in a severe application, one had either ensure one has an appropriate fluid or modify intervals, if needed.
My view, at least, is if something things that an SN/GF-5 5w-30 conventional is unsuitable to protect their application, base stock hunting might not be the most appropriate answer to their itch; finding something with more robust specifications might help, and that will probably involve a base stock improvement, but more than that, too. Similarly, with the taxis back in the day running 10,000 km intervals on conventional and being driven to the junkyard, base stock improvements likely wouldn't have helped.
Also, with comments about Nissan ester oil, remember, it's not an ester base stock oil.
I use the ester containing oils in my vehicles for one reason. Cold. In Wyoming it gets severely cold. My vehicles may sit outside days at a time. I want that cold pour point that comes along with class IV and V oils. Since it is getting harder to ascertain the base stocks and in many cases the actual tested performance of any particular oil I trended toward the Red Line. I may trend toward the M1 extended interval oil next time.
Base stock won't help that unless you choose an appropriate number before the "w" as well. I've seen Group IV 15w-40 options with ridiculously low pour points. A 15w-40, however, is still a 15w-XX example.
One vehicle uses 5w20 and two use 5w30 low saps. Just got an email from Mobil with a $17 cash back rebate on 5 qts of synthetic. Too bad I just changed the oil on all three a few weeks ago. 10k or 1 year on the OCI. I will probably go with the M1 next time.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Base stock won't help that unless you choose an appropriate number before the "w" as well. I've seen Group IV 15w-40 options with ridiculously low pour points. A 15w-40, however, is still a 15w-XX example.
Yes. If very cold temperatures are your primary concern then go for the oil that has the 0W rating.
Base stock won't help that unless you choose an appropriate number before the "w" as well. I've seen Group IV 15w-40 options with ridiculously low pour points. A 15w-40, however, is still a 15w-XX example.
Yes. If very cold temperatures are your primary concern then go for the oil that has the 0W rating.
Originally Posted By: sloinker
One vehicle uses 5w20 and two use 5w30 low saps. Just got an email from Mobil with a $17 cash back rebate on 5 qts of synthetic. Too bad I just changed the oil on all three a few weeks ago. 10k or 1 year on the OCI. I will probably go with the M1 next time.
Most ILSAC 5w-XX options (and ILSAC 0w-XX options) beat the MRV and CCS limits for the grade by a fairly health margin, too, so you can even see a conventional 5w-30 with significantly better cold cranking and MRV numbers than a 5w-40 PAO HDEO example. Of course, the PAO product will likely have a much better pour point, but that doesn't help the cranking or pumping.
One vehicle uses 5w20 and two use 5w30 low saps. Just got an email from Mobil with a $17 cash back rebate on 5 qts of synthetic. Too bad I just changed the oil on all three a few weeks ago. 10k or 1 year on the OCI. I will probably go with the M1 next time.
Most ILSAC 5w-XX options (and ILSAC 0w-XX options) beat the MRV and CCS limits for the grade by a fairly health margin, too, so you can even see a conventional 5w-30 with significantly better cold cranking and MRV numbers than a 5w-40 PAO HDEO example. Of course, the PAO product will likely have a much better pour point, but that doesn't help the cranking or pumping.
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actually it seems mobile 1 extended performance reduced its group 4 base oil to 30 % CAS No. 68649-12-7; pao base oil group equals CAS No. 68649-12-7, though this oil consists mainly of group 2 base oil as seen here in updated sds:Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
OP:
If you are looking for OTS non-Euro oils, about the only ones I know of that are readily available and >50% PAO based are M1 EP and AP 0w-20.
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That’s been discussed quite a bit in the four years since this thread was last updated.
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so does mobil 1 not offer any oils with 50 porcent or more group 4 base oil anymore or for that matter does any US oil manufacturar offer oil with 50 or more group 4 base oil?
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