Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
Engine Noise vs Wear Protection
- Thread starter dogememe
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My opinion is that the hydraulic lifters are leaking down faster causing the noise. The lifter bangs a little harder against the cam causing the noise.
I don't know if any of you have ever run Rhodes lifters which have a faster leak down rate to reduce the cam profile as engine rpm decreases. They make a ton of racket. I've never heard that they wear a camshaft any quicker.
I don't know if any of you have ever run Rhodes lifters which have a faster leak down rate to reduce the cam profile as engine rpm decreases. They make a ton of racket. I've never heard that they wear a camshaft any quicker.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
That’s a condemnation amount used by some people who do UOAs and do long OCIs. The oil is changed if the iron goes above that. It does not mean that it’s ok if any UOA has 149 PPM of iron. The rate of increase of the wear metals should be within acceptable limits. If the oil has 5k miles on it and 150 PPM of iron, that’s crazy high rate of increase. If it’s from a big rig and the oil has 50k miles on it, 150 PPM is reasonable from a rate perspective. Those iron particles at a concentration of 150 PPM are abrasive, so some people decided that should be the condemnation level. It is arbitrary but that’s unavoidable.
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
That’s a condemnation amount used by some people who do UOAs and do long OCIs. The oil is changed if the iron goes above that. It does not mean that it’s ok if any UOA has 149 PPM of iron. The rate of increase of the wear metals should be within acceptable limits. If the oil has 5k miles on it and 150 PPM of iron, that’s crazy high rate of increase. If it’s from a big rig and the oil has 50k miles on it, 150 PPM is reasonable from a rate perspective. Those iron particles at a concentration of 150 PPM are abrasive, so some people decided that should be the condemnation level. It is arbitrary but that’s unavoidable.
4wd you just keep forgetting to replace your dead batteries in your hearing aides
You have to replace them every now and then or they just don't work with dead batteries. They do need new batteries from time to time...
Just messing with ya.
You have to replace them every now and then or they just don't work with dead batteries. They do need new batteries from time to time...
Just messing with ya.
OK, are we talking start-up noise or running noise after full warm up?
4WD
$50 site donor 2024
Originally Posted By: bbhero
4wd you just keep forgetting to replace your dead batteries in your hearing aides
You have to replace them every now and then or they just don't work with dead batteries. They do need new batteries from time to time...
Just messing with ya.
I know … each of my ears test differently … it was my wife that pointed out PUP was noisy so I bought the dB meter and PUP was in noisiest both a Ford and GM engine (that had been on M1) … the M1 was EP in these cases …
Both were OHC engines …
4wd you just keep forgetting to replace your dead batteries in your hearing aides
You have to replace them every now and then or they just don't work with dead batteries. They do need new batteries from time to time...
Just messing with ya.
I know … each of my ears test differently … it was my wife that pointed out PUP was noisy so I bought the dB meter and PUP was in noisiest both a Ford and GM engine (that had been on M1) … the M1 was EP in these cases …
Both were OHC engines …
The level of valvetrain noise my Fords have is such that with both i have been asked how come it's a diesel with spark plugs!
Yeah I remember your real testing results... Well done indeed.
Funny thing is Motorcraft ran really quiet in my lady's 98 2.2L Camry.... Go figure.
I do notice that VWB runs very quiet in my Altima 3.5. So does Federated Auto 5w30 full synthetic oil, Castrol Magnatec 5w30, Havoline Pro DS 5w30, Havoline DS 5w30, old PU, and PUP... API SN Royal Purple was really bad loud. Spooky in fact.
Funny thing is Motorcraft ran really quiet in my lady's 98 2.2L Camry.... Go figure.
I do notice that VWB runs very quiet in my Altima 3.5. So does Federated Auto 5w30 full synthetic oil, Castrol Magnatec 5w30, Havoline Pro DS 5w30, Havoline DS 5w30, old PU, and PUP... API SN Royal Purple was really bad loud. Spooky in fact.
In my honda its have been Mobil1 0w-40 FS and Amsoil 5w-30ss that have produce the lowest engine noise. Oil tested Shell helix ultra 0w-40, castrol 0w-30 A5,Castrol 0w-30 A3, Castrol 0w-40 A3.
Right now using Amsoil. Will try the Amsoil ss 0w-20 next time.
Right now using Amsoil. Will try the Amsoil ss 0w-20 next time.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
Really ?
again ???
BTW, we never ever got to the bottom of what the elevated (LOL) iron was, whether it was something in contact with the couple of square feet of exposed iron in an engine or genuine "wear".
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
Really ?
again ???
BTW, we never ever got to the bottom of what the elevated (LOL) iron was, whether it was something in contact with the couple of square feet of exposed iron in an engine or genuine "wear".
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
That may be acceptable depending on how many miles were driven. Long story short most people here would freak out if they ran up to a 10K mile OCI and saw 150 ppm of iron.
Back on topic, I'm from the school of thought that when you hear any noise in an engine sounding like metal is on metal it isn't good. So if an engine calls a 20 grade oil and brand X oil is making the engine noisy, and brand y in the same grade isn't, then I'd use brand y.
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
That may be acceptable depending on how many miles were driven. Long story short most people here would freak out if they ran up to a 10K mile OCI and saw 150 ppm of iron.
Back on topic, I'm from the school of thought that when you hear any noise in an engine sounding like metal is on metal it isn't good. So if an engine calls a 20 grade oil and brand X oil is making the engine noisy, and brand y in the same grade isn't, then I'd use brand y.
I prefer a quieter oil that makes the engine silently purr along, but do not think a louder oil equates to a wear issue unless perhaps you are being silly with your grade selection.
I have a lot of experience with the Jeep 4.0 and that is definitely an engine that will display running tone differences. One of the very best oils for it (at least according to UOA's) is Rotella 10w30, yet Rotella is notoriously loud in the 4.0 and often makes it sound like a diesel especially at idle. Yet the UOA's are fabulous on it.
I have a lot of experience with the Jeep 4.0 and that is definitely an engine that will display running tone differences. One of the very best oils for it (at least according to UOA's) is Rotella 10w30, yet Rotella is notoriously loud in the 4.0 and often makes it sound like a diesel especially at idle. Yet the UOA's are fabulous on it.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
So if an engine calls a 20 grade oil and brand X oil is making the engine noisy, and brand y in the same grade isn't, then I'd use brand y.
+1000000
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Could there be some connection between high wear metals in M1 UOAs and noisier engines? Hmmm...
The acceptable limit for iron is 150PPM.
So if an engine calls a 20 grade oil and brand X oil is making the engine noisy, and brand y in the same grade isn't, then I'd use brand y.
+1000000
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I would never say that "noisy" oils produce more wear, and have never seen a single data point to that effect.
What specific testing brought you to that conclusion?
google...
Oh, and it's on record here on BITOG that when I put M1 0W40 in my 4runner (pre the noisy M1 meme, it wsa only me and sprintman who had noticed), and it sounded like a steel bucket full of ball bearings.
Thanks- I was going down a "hands on" approach road and I brought it up because I do testing in my business but here it isn't economical or feasible for me and I'm not an engine expert. But noise bothers me. If it was possible I would take oil A
( quietest) and oil B ( loudest) and try to pinpoint- isolate what area of the engine is creating the noise if possible and do testing and tear downs to prove that excessive noise does not correlate with wear. Not seeing visual proof I could never make the statement you have. If I use an oil that creates excessive noise I would remove it at once- factoring in the same oil filter of course. Noise is seldom a positive. Thank you for the link sir!
Originally Posted By: AirgunSavant
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I would never say that "noisy" oils produce more wear, and have never seen a single data point to that effect.
What specific testing brought you to that conclusion?
google...
Oh, and it's on record here on BITOG that when I put M1 0W40 in my 4runner (pre the noisy M1 meme, it wsa only me and sprintman who had noticed), and it sounded like a steel bucket full of ball bearings.
Thanks- I was going down a "hands on" approach road and I brought it up because I do testing in my business but here it isn't economical or feasible for me and I'm not an engine expert. But noise bothers me. If it was possible I would take oil A
( quietest) and oil B ( loudest) and try to pinpoint- isolate what area of the engine is creating the noise if possible and do testing and tear downs to prove that excessive noise does not correlate with wear. Not seeing visual proof I could never make the statement you have. If I use an oil that creates excessive noise I would remove it at once- factoring in the same oil filter of course. Noise is seldom a positive. Thank you for the link sir!
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
. The 2 UOA's I did with the Mobil1 5W-30 and the Motorcraft 5W-30 showed good good wear numbers. Though the Motorcraft 5W-30 did reduce in viscosity to a 20 weight in 4,275 miles while the Mobil 1 5W-30 just maintained it's 30 weight in 7,000 miles.
Whimsey
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
. The 2 UOA's I did with the Mobil1 5W-30 and the Motorcraft 5W-30 showed good good wear numbers. Though the Motorcraft 5W-30 did reduce in viscosity to a 20 weight in 4,275 miles while the Mobil 1 5W-30 just maintained it's 30 weight in 7,000 miles.
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil with the same brand & viscosity would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil with the same brand & viscosity would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
. The 2 UOA's I did with the Mobil1 5W-30 and the Motorcraft 5W-30 showed good good wear numbers. Though the Motorcraft 5W-30 did reduce in viscosity to a 20 weight in 4,275 miles while the Mobil 1 5W-30 just maintained it's 30 weight in 7,000 miles.
Whimsey
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
Thanks for your feedback. If the Motorcraft 5W-30 oil shears well into a 20 wt in as little as 4,275 miles how does Ford expect the oil to go 10,000 miles/1year on that oil in the turbo DI engine that spec's 5W-30? What would the viscosity be at 10,000 miles when your iOLM says it's time to change it? It's not comforting if you plan on keeping your vehicle for a long time.
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
Whimsey
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
Thanks for your feedback. If the Motorcraft 5W-30 oil shears well into a 20 wt in as little as 4,275 miles how does Ford expect the oil to go 10,000 miles/1year on that oil in the turbo DI engine that spec's 5W-30? What would the viscosity be at 10,000 miles when your iOLM says it's time to change it? It's not comforting if you plan on keeping your vehicle for a long time.
Whimsey
A couple of things. First the new DI engines make their own noise because of the injection system. A lot of people might be confusing that with actual engine noise. Secondly, with most engines being aluminium both in the block and head plus some of the internals depending on the make, iron is becoming less and less. Some have iron cylinders and some do not.
So when we see iron numbers in a uoa we have to understand the composition of the engine.
So when we see iron numbers in a uoa we have to understand the composition of the engine.
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
. The 2 UOA's I did with the Mobil1 5W-30 and the Motorcraft 5W-30 showed good good wear numbers. Though the Motorcraft 5W-30 did reduce in viscosity to a 20 weight in 4,275 miles while the Mobil 1 5W-30 just maintained it's 30 weight in 7,000 miles.
Whimsey
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
Thanks for your feedback. If the Motorcraft 5W-30 oil shears well into a 20 wt in as little as 4,275 miles how does Ford expect the oil to go 10,000 miles/1year on that oil in the turbo DI engine that spec's 5W-30? What would the viscosity be at 10,000 miles when your iOLM says it's time to change it? It's not comforting if you plan on keeping your vehicle for a long time.
Whimsey
Good question ... and who knows. But if you look at the collection of UOAs in this thread you can see how Motorcraft and Mobil 1 have sheared down compared to some other oils. Makes me wonder too, but I guess if motors live on xW-20 then they'll still survive if a 5W-30 shears down to a 20. What about 5W-20 ... shear down to a 16 or less?
https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/official-gt-5-0-boss-302-uoa-thread.805918/
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
I can honestly say that with our 2017 Explorer 2.3 EB the "engine noise" is the same using the factory fill, dealer first bulk oil change, my using Mobil 1 5W-30 and my use of Motorcraft 5W-30. It still sounds like a sewing machine when standing outside of it. Inside it's super quiet
Whimsey
I've seen quite a few UOAs that show Motorcraft shears down quite a bit, and also Mobil 1 seems to shear down quite a bit too in some engines with lots of timing chains. I'd think that as the miles get put on the oil and it shears down in viscosity, then the engine may become somewhat more mechanically noisy. Changing the oil would then quiet up the engine again if the noise was viscosity related.
Thanks for your feedback. If the Motorcraft 5W-30 oil shears well into a 20 wt in as little as 4,275 miles how does Ford expect the oil to go 10,000 miles/1year on that oil in the turbo DI engine that spec's 5W-30? What would the viscosity be at 10,000 miles when your iOLM says it's time to change it? It's not comforting if you plan on keeping your vehicle for a long time.
Whimsey
Good question ... and who knows. But if you look at the collection of UOAs in this thread you can see how Motorcraft and Mobil 1 have sheared down compared to some other oils. Makes me wonder too, but I guess if motors live on xW-20 then they'll still survive if a 5W-30 shears down to a 20. What about 5W-20 ... shear down to a 16 or less?
https://www.svtperformance.com/forums/threads/official-gt-5-0-boss-302-uoa-thread.805918/
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