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Additive Component Chemistry V #4745438
05/02/18 11:18 AM
05/02/18 11:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
This question involves additives and base oils for a finished, high temperature lubricant.

A combination of anti-oxidant(s) AO and anti-wear agents AW comprise about 2.5% of this finished lubricant.

The rest of the finished lubricant (about 97.5%) is base oil.


In your own words please answer the following questions:

Q1: What is the name of this finished lubricant?

Q2: what is the base oil?


This question is not open to Engineers, Chemists, Formulators, or Tribologists.


Swipes and YouTube dumps do not qualify as a valid answer. no-no




Last edited by MolaKule; 05/02/18 11:25 AM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745447
05/02/18 11:35 AM
05/02/18 11:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,964
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
double vanos Offline
double vanos  Offline
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,964
5600 feet elevation, Arizona
1). Automatic transmission fluid
2).PAO


Sabine Schmitz is the Queen of the 'Ring; Svetlana Kapanina is the Queen of the SKIES...
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745463
05/02/18 11:51 AM
05/02/18 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
In this case, we are talking about temperatures 3 or more times higher than a transmission fluid would ever see.

Transmission fluids contain at least a 13% additive package, so a transmission fluid would have 87% base oils.


Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745492
05/02/18 12:24 PM
05/02/18 12:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 65
Hamburg Michigan
Elevguy Offline
Elevguy  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 65
Hamburg Michigan
Hydraulic fluid-oil

Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745516
05/02/18 12:57 PM
05/02/18 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
There are two parts to this question so we need two answers:

Quote:
This question involves additives and base oils for a finished, high temperature lubricant.

A combination of anti-oxidant(s) AO and anti-wear agents AW comprise about 2.5% of this finished lubricant.

The rest of the finished lubricant (about 97.5%) is base oil.


In your own words please answer the following questions:

Q1: What is the name of this finished lubricant?

Q2: what is the base oil?

Last edited by MolaKule; 05/02/18 01:00 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745522
05/02/18 01:16 PM
05/02/18 01:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Olas Offline
Olas  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Some permutation of top end lube / injector cleaner / snake oil, because

It's 97.6% base oil, and, "they're mostly just kerosene anyway"


Cable ties should hold it
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: Olas] #4745604
05/02/18 02:32 PM
05/02/18 02:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Olas
Some permutation of top end lube / injector cleaner / snake oil, because

It's 97.6% base oil, and, "they're mostly just kerosene anyway"


NO, not kerosene, because this is a lubricant for high temperature applications, seeing up to 600F in certain locations in the engine.


It has a pour point of -71F.

It has an Evaporation loss of 4% at 400F.

It has an Autoignition Temp of 760F.



There are two parts to this question so we need two answers:


This question involves additives and base oils for a finished, high temperature lubricant.

Quote:
A combination of anti-oxidant(s) AO and anti-wear agents AW comprise about 2.5% of this finished lubricant.

The rest of the finished lubricant (about 97.5%) is base oil.


In your own words please answer the following questions:

Q1: What is the name of this finished lubricant?

Q2: what is the base oil?



This question is not open to Engineers, Chemists, Formulators, or Tribologists.


Swipes and YouTube dumps do not qualify as a valid answer. no-no

Last edited by MolaKule; 05/02/18 02:40 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745791
05/02/18 05:52 PM
05/02/18 05:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Twin Cities MN USA
Inspecktor Offline
Inspecktor  Offline
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Twin Cities MN USA
Jet turbine oil, ester based?


2001 Ranger 3.0 159,000 mi
2006 Dakota 4.7 156,000 mi
1986 GL1200A 73,000 mi
2001 Buick LeSabre Limited 291,500 mi
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: Inspecktor] #4745804
05/02/18 06:02 PM
05/02/18 06:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,436
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,436
Waco, TX
Is this a COMMON fluid?!?!?!


Originally Posted By: Inspecktor
Jet turbine oil, ester based?


My first guess....

Or maybe something very rare & exotic...
Like Castrol Brayco Micronic 889 MIL-PRF-87252C PAO fluid?


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745816
05/02/18 06:11 PM
05/02/18 06:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,547
VW Fanboy Island
maxdustington Offline
maxdustington  Offline
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,547
VW Fanboy Island
1. two-stroke oil
2. bean oil


03 Jetta AWP/09A 205k kms
Edge 0W40 + Mann 719/30
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: Linctex] #4745822
05/02/18 06:14 PM
05/02/18 06:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Is this a COMMON fluid?!?!?!




Common wrt what?

It is common in the Aviation industry.


Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: Inspecktor] #4745828
05/02/18 06:16 PM
05/02/18 06:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline OP
MolaKule  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,300
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: Inspecktor
Jet turbine oil, ester based?



And Inspecktor submits the correct answers and receives the BITOG virtual Coffee Mug with the Piston Cup Emblem.

Jet turbine oil may have the following specifications among many:

It has a pour point of -71F.

It has an Evaporation loss of 4% at 400F.

It has an Autoignition Temp of 760F.

A kinematic viscosity of ~ 5.3 [email protected]


The bearing cells in the High Pressure or "hot Section" of Jet turbine engines have to endure very high temperatures in operation and very cold temperatures for a re-start.

The only oils qualified for this extreme environment are specialized Polyol Esters or POE's, and contain a Multi-Function phosphporus component with specialized anti-oxidants.

Esters in Synthetic Lubricants

One of the latest developments in Jet Turbine oils is Mobil Jet 387.

https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/aviation/products-and-services/products/mobil-jet-oil-387





Last edited by MolaKule; 05/02/18 06:31 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding requires Study and an Open Mind.
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745901
05/02/18 07:17 PM
05/02/18 07:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Twin Cities MN USA
Inspecktor Offline
Inspecktor  Offline
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 668
Twin Cities MN USA
Thank you, Molakule, I will keep my mug safe in my virtual trophy case!


2001 Ranger 3.0 159,000 mi
2006 Dakota 4.7 156,000 mi
1986 GL1200A 73,000 mi
2001 Buick LeSabre Limited 291,500 mi
Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4745991
05/02/18 08:17 PM
05/02/18 08:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 65
Hamburg Michigan
Elevguy Offline
Elevguy  Offline
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 65
Hamburg Michigan
Good job

Re: Additive Component Chemistry V [Re: MolaKule] #4748005
05/04/18 08:33 PM
05/04/18 08:33 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,143
Virginia
Tom NJ Offline
Tom NJ  Offline
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,143
Virginia
Dang, and you wouldn't let me play! grin

Just to add a little more data:

The first ester based jet engine oils date back to 1953 and were based on a diester (Dioctyl Sebacate). POE based oils were introduced in 1963 (Mobil Jet ll) as a 2nd generation oil. We are now up to 4th generation oils.

Most of the current jet engine oils use a Pentaerythritol (PE) type POE base ester made from mono-basic fatty acids from C5 to C10, both linear and sometimes branched. The exception is Eastman 2380 witch is based on a blend of a Trimethylolpropane (TMP) ester and a Dipentaerythritol (DiPE) ester. The POE content runs from 93 to 96 percent.

Most use at least two amine type anti-oxidants to exploit synergies. For lower coking the anti-oxidants are alkylated, and the cleanest are oligomers of these alkylated amine AOs. AO content is typically 2-3%.

The anti-wear additive is almost exclusively Tricresyl Phosphate (TCP), but there is an EP version that also uses a small amount of an amine terminated partial acid phosphate. The TCP content runs from 2-3%

Other additives include a yellow metal inhibitor, a silicone type anti-foam, and sometimes a rust inhibitor. These additives are generally less than 0.2% each.

The fluids are at least as much if not more coolants than lubricants. The Air Force uses a lighter oil (3 cSt @ 100C) because of remote cold bases. Other armed forces and commercial airlines use a 5 cSt oil, and some turboprops use a 7.5 cSt oil to lubricate the reduction gears.

The oils contain no detergents, dispersants, or ZDDP, so they are not suitable for car engines!

Tom NJ/VA

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