Mobil 1 0W/20 AP, 7634 Miles, 2005 Civic 1.7 w PC

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
9,520
Location
Scruffy City
Oil remains in service.

Filter is XG7317

Plan is to resample in about 7500 more miles and run to about 20,000 total if no issues.

Previous oil samples are all here (It is doubtful the 172,212 sample was Mobil 1). No significant change in usage.

05_CIVIC_VP_179846.jpg


05_CIVIC_VP_179846_ALS1.jpg


05_CIVIC_VP_179846_ALS2.jpg
 
Tan is higher than TBN. I wonder how long the oil can last without negative effects on the engine.
 
Nice Blackstone-to-NAPA comparison. Only the TBN doesn't quite agree, other values reasonably close.
M1 AP's anti-oxidants and base oils should hang in there, their claim to fame.
How many short trips here? Trips where the engine doesn't get warm. Probably need 10 miles before its not considered "short trip". That could defeat even M1 AP, so of course change in 1 year regardless of mileage and it should be fine.
 
It doesn’t really have any significant short trips, aside from the fact it sometimes gets backed out and pulled right back in to get the trashcan down to the curb it gets warm when it leaves the house, it is over 10 miles round trip to anything and usually it is multiple anythings when it goes to town.

I believe we decided ALS/Blackstone did TBN by different methods which usually results in approximately a point variation.

It’ll probably be over 10,000 by the year mark, but no way will it make 20,000 in a year (probably take 2) I knew this going in and fully intended to exceed the year “expiration date”... I’m not quite ready to panic over the TAN.
 
Originally Posted By: dgunay
I wouldn't extend it, TAN is already higher than TBN.


Originally Posted By: DuckRyder
It doesn’t really have any significant short trips, aside from the fact it sometimes gets backed out and pulled right back in to get the trashcan down to the curb it gets warm when it leaves the house, it is over 10 miles round trip to anything and usually it is multiple anythings when it goes to town.

I believe we decided ALS/Blackstone did TBN by different methods which usually results in approximately a point variation.

It’ll probably be over 10,000 by the year mark, but no way will it make 20,000 in a year (probably take 2) I knew this going in and fully intended to exceed the year “expiration date”... I’m not quite ready to panic over the TAN.


Overkill explained TAN/TBN to me here in this post. (more info than you need but I thought I'd post it all) Like dgunay stated/alluded to, I'd likely dump it now rather than thinking about extending it.
No way, imo, is this oil good to go for 20,000 miles as it looks like it has reached its usable life already.

TBN = Total Base Number - it is the amount of base in the oil. This number starts out reasonably high, usually around 8-9 for a PCMO, it can be higher for an HDEO. This represents the oil's ability to neutralize acids. As this takes place, that number decreases, as there is less reserve; less base, left in the oil to perform that function.

TAN = Total Acid Number - This is how much acid is present in the oil. This number starts out extremely low and, as the oil remains in service, being polluted with combustion byproducts, blow-by gasses, which include sulphuric acids and the like, may start to creep up as the base used to neutralize the acids is depleted.

Generally, there was/is an old adage that stated that once TBN and TAN crossed, the oil was no longer serviceable. However, for certain oils with certain base stocks, that may not apply, but generally it is a good rule of thumb.

Now, as per what SOJ touched on, the TBN exists due to the presence of basic compounds which are part of the overall additive package. These products can vary blender-to-blender and also in effectiveness. Certain bases aren't necessarily ideal for neutralizing certain acids, so you can end up with uptick in TAN without the corresponding depletion in TBN, which is what SOJ was saying and why you can't just glance at TBN and always assume "I'm good!". Because you might not be. Now if you have TAN, like I did in my above reports, you can see that TAN is very low in both UOA's where it was provided, and there was a pretty decent difference in TBN between the two runs as well. In either instance the oil was still suitable for use based on those numbers, but the Petro-Canada Duron-E would have required changing sooner than the Mobil product based on what appears to be the trend.

TBN and TAN together, work to establish one of the parameters for an oil's suitability for continued use. They define a set of condemnation points that, if reached, require the oil to be changed. Other parameters are wear-metal uptake, nitration, oxidation...etc. There is a reasonably decent list. This stuff can be extremely useful for expensive heavy use industrial equipment with large sumps where a periodic sample can be shipped off to Toromont or similar and evaluated to provide a snapshot of that machine's health and whether the oil is reaching the end of its serviceability. These are typically trended over the life of the machine and are monitored not only for the health of the lubricant, but also for anomalies that might suggest something amiss in the machine that warrants further investigation.
 
Last edited:
Good metal wear rates, I wouldn't be concerned with 5.9 TAN ,yet.
Thanks for sharing.
Would love to see 15k/20k UOA.
 
Particle counts from Fram Ultra weren't quite as good as I was expecting??

This is part of the reason I'm going to do a FU to MicroGreen particle count test. Run the FU for nearly the full OCI (all but maybe 500-1k miles), drop the filter and pull a sample, then run another 500-1k miles with a MicroGreen and pull a second sample. Both samples will be sent "blind" to the lab without identifying which filter is which and which sample was taken first. Should yield some interesting results!
 
I find it hard to believe this Lube will make it to 20k miles. Would be interested to see another sample in 7,500 miles like the OP said.

I'd donate $1 towards your engine replacement piggy bank. Run it 20k!
 
Originally Posted By: dgunay
I wouldn't extend it, TAN is already higher than TBN.

Esters? M1 5W30 ESP that I tried in VW CC and Tiguan also showed high TAN.
 
One more thing to consider.

It is down a little, plus sampling for 2 labs... Very likely it will need top up oil. Normally over a ~ 10,000 run it doesn’t use more than .5 qt, add samples and more miles seems reasonable that it will need between 1 and 1.5 QTs top up to make a 20,000 run.
 
Agreed, but that's only during testing. Once you're done sampling and proceed with a "typical" OCI of say... 20,000 miles, top off will be minimal and the additives will be depleted and running low.
 
Originally Posted By: irv
TBN and TAN together, work to establish one of the parameters for an oil's suitability for continued use. They define a set of condemnation points that, if reached, require the oil to be changed. Other parameters are wear-metal uptake, nitration, oxidation...etc. There is a reasonably decent list.

All that increases viscosity, which fortunately we can measure easily. It's a simplification to be sure, yet viscosity tells the story.
Mobil1 Annual Protection holds off the tell-tale visc increase:
mobil-1-annual-protection-oil-breakdown.jpg


When gunky oil starts to form (PIN on the 'Machinery Lubrication' chart below), visc rises rapidly:
Backup_199901_Graphics_GM4.gif


.. and BMW's in-sump sensor detects increases in viscosity.
Citall-5S11875-12617508003-BMW-E46-E39-E38-E90.jpg_640x640.jpg
 
oil_film, you're making some pretty big assumptions! First off is that Mobil's chart is linear... typically when these things are charted, when a company doesn't put units on the "time" or "distance" when comparing to competitors, they're typically not being entirely truthful about the data. 2nd... on the BMW sensor- OP's car is a Honda, not BMW- and how does it measure viscosity if there's not flow through the sensing element? The thing I also notice from the Machinery Lubrication data is that all three examples, though they vary between which test (OA or OLM) determined the oil was "used up", all three examples show that TAN>TBN is no longer a valid condemnation point on the comparison of those tests alone. The other note is that whatever oil was used (if the same) were condemned at roughly 10,500 miles total.
 
Interesting, going to have to digest this a bit.

Don’t want to go too far off on the PC train of thought, but my plan was to monitor this over the life of this filter and then do the same over the same mileage of a Honda filter next OCI. Aside from being rather expensive this will require me to sample at roughly equal intervals and that nothing happens to the car. So in like 3-4 years we can dig into that.
crackmeup2.gif
The proposed Microgreen experiment will be interesting too.

So heres a few of my assumptions, guesses and loose hypothesis.

I believe this oil will do what Mobil says it will, while I’m going to be a little off reservation on the time, I’ve got enough confidence to give it the old college try. In order for the oil to demonstrate that it can go the distance (outside of Mobils data) someone has to try it. I still believe there has to be something going on with this oil that isn’t readily apparent in a consumer level UOA. Also without the TAN I bet no one would be saying change it...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top