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Ethanol free gas #4738204
04/25/18 09:40 AM
04/25/18 09:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,857
Idaho
CT8 Offline OP
CT8  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,857
Idaho
Has any one used Ethanol free gas and noticed an increase in mpgs? It is so hard to actually prove a mpg increase but on the dash read out and doing the math, I am seeing about a 1 mpg increase over 3 tanks. I will run a few more tanks fulls and see if the mpgs stay up though.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738208
04/25/18 09:47 AM
04/25/18 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,805
Florida, Cape Coral
Eddie Offline
Eddie  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,805
Florida, Cape Coral
If we do the calculation, the heat loss should result in a minus 4.7% MPG. This for 10% alcohal. Ed


CX5 Touring 2.5L :-)
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738219
04/25/18 09:56 AM
04/25/18 09:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 540
TEXAS
InhalingBullets Offline
InhalingBullets  Offline
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 540
TEXAS
Yep, when in Oklahoma my wife and I filled up her Prius with ethanol free and got 4.5mpg more than usual for a few fill ups. Once back in TX and Ethanol the mileage went back down.


'16 Toyota Prius 4
'15 Ram 2500 Megacab Diesel
'14 Victory Cross Country Tour
'13 Toyota Prius 3
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738223
04/25/18 10:00 AM
04/25/18 10:00 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
Olas Offline
Olas  Offline
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,989
Manchester, England
If you keep all the variables the same you will see better mpg, but it's very difficult to exactly replicate test conditions.


Cable ties should hold it
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738227
04/25/18 10:04 AM
04/25/18 10:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,857
Idaho
CT8 Offline OP
CT8  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 11,857
Idaho
There is a good chance of an increase then,,, good.


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738229
04/25/18 10:07 AM
04/25/18 10:07 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,282
ROCHESTER, NY
Char Baby Offline
Char Baby  Offline
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 10,282
ROCHESTER, NY
The only ethanol FREE gas in my area is 93 octane, or whatever high octane the stations carry. My vehicle don't require octan this high. I supposed I could use it in the Firebird FORMULA(I do use 91-93 w/10% e) in my signature but otherwise, I'm staying with 87 octane w/10% ethanol.


"Retired"
-----------------------------------

'80 Firebird FORMULA V8/4bbl-purchased "NEW"
'15 Nissan Altima 2.5 SV
'15 Honda Civic LX
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738236
04/25/18 10:18 AM
04/25/18 10:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
Jooksing Offline
Jooksing  Offline
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
I was just reading a bunch of articles on this last night. One qouted ethanol free vs 10percent ethanol had about 1.6 percent less energy by volume. I guess that can translate to 4.7 at the wheel. (Besides energy density I am sure it also affects energy conversion)

Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738264
04/25/18 10:38 AM
04/25/18 10:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
BullittGT Offline
BullittGT  Offline
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
Delco, PA
I don't have my logs anymore but when I got my 2014 Altima 2.5L I had done a few tests.

1) I always filled up at the same WaWa
2) I never filled up until my gas light was on
3) I changed my oil regularly with the same Mobile1 0w20 every 7K.

While doing this I drove a number ofn tanks(some place from 5-7, I don't recall anymore) on 87oct and then the same number on 89oct. During this time 89 was priced closer to 87 than 91 or 93.

I found that the MPG on 89 was so much better than on 87 that using 89 was actually cheaper in the price-per-mile average over all the tanks. 89 was slightly better than 87 on the first tank then on the 2nd it went up more and then the rest of the tanks were right in line or just slightly better than the 2nd. This continued until 89 had like a 5-10 cent jump and moved closer to premium prices. Then 87 was cheaper again. When on 89 the car was also very mildly smoother with a bit less vibration.

My driving was always the same for work. This was during spring to fall on 2014, I then re-did it for the same time period on 2015 and had similar results regarding the MPG increase, but due to 89oct being priced higher It wasn't beneficial to keep running it despite my MPG increasing.

There were 2 things that I could see that caused this, and were possibly related.
1) The cars ECU was actively pulling a tiny bit of timing at all times. The higher octane was letting it stop pulling that timing(or less of it) which resulted in smoother operation and allowed for the MPG increase.
2) I heard(never found any proof) 87oct was/is using a lower oct of "real gas" then adding in E to reach 87. The 89 was using a higher base of "real gas" and then adding in E to make 89. The fact the 89 had a higher base octane of "real gas" was better for the car, because automakers still use "real gas" 87 in their testing and not e10. ----- again no evidence on this one, but something I heard and seemed to possibly be logical.

Last edited by BullittGT; 04/25/18 10:51 AM.

Hoping for a 2019/2020 Mustang BULLITT
Current: 2018 Q50 Red Sport 400 AWD
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738286
04/25/18 11:04 AM
04/25/18 11:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,865
Onondaga County
Miller88 Offline
Miller88  Offline
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,865
Onondaga County
Any modern vehicle will adjust timing based on increased octane. Unless you're direct injection or FI or some combination of the two, it's a small difference.

My parents' last escape (2.0T EB 2013) went from ~23 to ~27 going from 87 with ethanol to 91 ethanol free. Probably more of it was from using higher octane gas but the lack of ethanol probably played some part of it.


18 Forester 2.5I 6M
00 Jeep Cherokee
01 Ford F-350 XL 4x4 5M
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: Jooksing] #4738288
04/25/18 11:06 AM
04/25/18 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,164
MA
Wolf359 Online content
Wolf359  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,164
MA
Originally Posted By: Jooksing
I was just reading a bunch of articles on this last night. One qouted ethanol free vs 10percent ethanol had about 1.6 percent less energy by volume. I guess that can translate to 4.7 at the wheel. (Besides energy density I am sure it also affects energy conversion)


That's basically BTU's per gallon. Gasoline is about 114,000 btu's per gallon and ethanol is 76,100. Do the math and 10% ethanol works out to about 102,600 btu from gas and 7610 from ethanol for a total of 110,210 per gallon vs the 114,000 in pure gasoline. So gas mileage will be about 3.3% worse with 10% ethanol.

That's why E85 is no bargain even if it's much cheaper than gasoline. Just doesn't have the btu's that gas has.

Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: CT8] #4738295
04/25/18 11:12 AM
04/25/18 11:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,805
Florida, Cape Coral
Eddie Offline
Eddie  Offline
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 9,805
Florida, Cape Coral
I calculated about 4.7% loss but, we're close enough that a driver will notice a real drop in mileage. Ed


CX5 Touring 2.5L :-)
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: BullittGT] #4738296
04/25/18 11:13 AM
04/25/18 11:13 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
Jooksing Offline
Jooksing  Offline
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
Originally Posted By: BullittGT

2) I heard(never found any proof) 87oct was/is using a lower oct of "real gas" then adding in E to reach 87. The 89 was using a higher base of "real gas" and then adding in E to make 89. The fact the 89 had a higher base octane of "real gas" was better for the car, because automakers still use "real gas" 87 in their testing and not e10. ----- again no evidence on this one, but something I heard and seemed to possibly be logical.


I am tempted to try this to "measure" how much e was added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDAw4a6Ck0

Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: Wolf359] #4738308
04/25/18 11:27 AM
04/25/18 11:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
Jooksing Offline
Jooksing  Offline
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 216
Chicago
Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: Jooksing
I was just reading a bunch of articles on this last night. One qouted ethanol free vs 10percent ethanol had about 1.6 percent less energy by volume. I guess that can translate to 4.7 at the wheel. (Besides energy density I am sure it also affects energy conversion)


That's basically BTU's per gallon. Gasoline is about 114,000 btu's per gallon and ethanol is 76,100. Do the math and 10% ethanol works out to about 102,600 btu from gas and 7610 from ethanol for a total of 110,210 per gallon vs the 114,000 in pure gasoline. So gas mileage will be about 3.3% worse with 10% ethanol.

That's why E85 is no bargain even if it's much cheaper than gasoline. Just doesn't have the btu's that gas has.


Some of the links I read they measured about 7% e from the fuel they tested but sold as up to 10%e.
In addition to btu count, e has a different burn speed (and cylinder pressure) that affect how much power is obtained from it that needs to be considered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED_lf2-ut1A
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S111006211530012X
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-...l-analysis.html

Last edited by Jooksing; 04/25/18 11:27 AM.
Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: Miller88] #4738317
04/25/18 11:32 AM
04/25/18 11:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,164
MA
Wolf359 Online content
Wolf359  Online Content
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 5,164
MA
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Any modern vehicle will adjust timing based on increased octane. Unless you're direct injection or FI or some combination of the two, it's a small difference.

My parents' last escape (2.0T EB 2013) went from ~23 to ~27 going from 87 with ethanol to 91 ethanol free. Probably more of it was from using higher octane gas but the lack of ethanol probably played some part of it.


It's the other way around. Timing is retarded when the engine knocks. Otherwise timing is already ideal. If it's not retarded with 87, there's no mileage improvement. Lots of people think it, but there's lots of factors that affect gas mileage such as winter/summer gas, running the A/C during the summer, and of course the amount of idling/speeding varies by the tank. It's almost comical when people try to claim that running super vs regular improved by a certain small amount. My gas mileage can go from 16-21 just depending on the type of driving I did and the traffic at the time with the same gas.

Re: Ethanol free gas [Re: Miller88] #4738330
04/25/18 11:45 AM
04/25/18 11:45 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,385
MN
tmorris1 Offline
tmorris1  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,385
MN
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Any modern vehicle will adjust timing based on increased octane. Unless you're direct injection or FI or some combination of the two, it's a small difference.

My parents' last escape (2.0T EB 2013) went from ~23 to ~27 going from 87 with ethanol to 91 ethanol free. Probably more of it was from using higher octane gas but the lack of ethanol probably played some part of it.


Its not the octane that increased mileage, it is the ethanol that decreased it. It just happens that most ethanol free gas is premium fuel.

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