A neighbor of mine used an automotive-type oil in his ATV and now he has slight clutch slippage. Will the glaze wear off over time? Is there any other solution besides new clutch plates?
Glazed Clutch Plates
- Thread starter Ron Jeremy
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Once the disks are glazed they are glazed for good.
Replace them the steel plates/springs run a good quality diesel motor oil or motorcycle application type oil and you will be fine.
Glazing in mosts cases is abuse of the clutch or out of ajustment.
Replace them the steel plates/springs run a good quality diesel motor oil or motorcycle application type oil and you will be fine.
Glazing in mosts cases is abuse of the clutch or out of ajustment.
I'm with LC. Glazed donuts are glazed for life. I guess you could try and buff them up, but, why? You've got the clutch pack apart at that point, just replace the glazed disks and be done with it. Also, make sure the clutch pressure is correct, and that the user is using the clutch correctly. HDEO oils do great in the wet clutch systems I've run the past 30+ years, and, they are cheap! If it was the automotive "energy conserving" type that actually caused the problem in the first place, HDEO use will avert that problem in the future.
Glazing is made of mostly sugar, at least in donuts. Glazing in a clutch disk is similar to glazing of a brake pad...it's also a product of heating. Actually, it's heating AND slipping. It's often just the disk material itself, not some additive, although some additives could assist in creating the conditions, and I imagine some additives could be part of the actual glaze.
Friction modifiers in motor oil decrease friction, right? Why do some people insist that they are not responsible for clutch slippage and ruination?
Something akin to grinding aluminum with a grinding wheel.
I think many clutch failures are classified as abuse and old age when in fact oil played the major role.
Something akin to grinding aluminum with a grinding wheel.
I think many clutch failures are classified as abuse and old age when in fact oil played the major role.
what kind of atv? sometime the baskets are adjustable for plate wear, springs can get weak, cable mis adjusted could be pulling when the bars are turned, many reasons it could be slipping.
Is it worse when it's hot? Do the plates break loose well with the clutch engaged, does it snick from N to 1st, or clunk with the bike nudging forward?
Is it worse when it's hot? Do the plates break loose well with the clutch engaged, does it snick from N to 1st, or clunk with the bike nudging forward?
You might try a couple of quick oil changed to rinse out the oil that caused the slipping. Or pull the clutch apart and sand the steels. If the clutch stack height is a little short you can add one extra thin steel to the pack.
If the steels are blued they are ok to use as long as they are not warped.
I burned up a few clutches when I used to drag race some and learned a few short cuts to save a little money.
If the steels are blued they are ok to use as long as they are not warped.
I burned up a few clutches when I used to drag race some and learned a few short cuts to save a little money.
It's a late model Suzuki that has separate holes for engine, gearbox, and clutch. I don't know the extent of the slippage. He say's its liveable for now. So If I'm hearing you guys correctly, it isn't the friction modifier that is the glaze, it simply creates the conditions for slippage thereby causing the glaze?
what is this glaze made out of?
Friction modifiers by themselves aren't necessarily bad, but a friction modifier that 'Reduces' friction can be a problem.
There's no mystery here! The friction specs for a wet clutch are clearly spelled out by JASO in the MA spec for 4 stroke oils. The dynamic friction index must be 1.45 or greater. The static friction index must be 1.15 or great and the stop time index must be 1.55 or greater if the oil is considered safe for wet clutches.
All JASO MA rated oil must meet this friction spec, which means they're safe for web clutches.
Some PCMO's may meet this spec and some may not, but it's up to you to take that risk if that's the road you want to travel. Also, many HDEO's probably meet this spec, but again, they don't have to meet those specs and you're taking a chance by using a HDEO because formulations can and do change and usually without notice to the consumer. Rotella is just one example of a good HDEO that's had a great run for wet clutch applications, but this may change in the future. When the new ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) goes widespread and more diesel vehicles start coming with catalytic converters & EGR system, etc, I think you'll see large changes in HDEO formulations and they won't be as friendly to wet clutch application as they are today.
There's no mystery here! The friction specs for a wet clutch are clearly spelled out by JASO in the MA spec for 4 stroke oils. The dynamic friction index must be 1.45 or greater. The static friction index must be 1.15 or great and the stop time index must be 1.55 or greater if the oil is considered safe for wet clutches.
All JASO MA rated oil must meet this friction spec, which means they're safe for web clutches.
Some PCMO's may meet this spec and some may not, but it's up to you to take that risk if that's the road you want to travel. Also, many HDEO's probably meet this spec, but again, they don't have to meet those specs and you're taking a chance by using a HDEO because formulations can and do change and usually without notice to the consumer. Rotella is just one example of a good HDEO that's had a great run for wet clutch applications, but this may change in the future. When the new ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel) goes widespread and more diesel vehicles start coming with catalytic converters & EGR system, etc, I think you'll see large changes in HDEO formulations and they won't be as friendly to wet clutch application as they are today.
I'd try a dose of Cycle-RX (seriously):
http://www.cycle-rx.com
Same stuff as Auto-RX. Can't hurt, and might just fix things.
http://www.cycle-rx.com
Same stuff as Auto-RX. Can't hurt, and might just fix things.
If your friend used an automotive engine oil with moly in it that is what the glaze is. Oil with moly additives should never be used in a wet clutch. Lots of people get away with it but those clutch plates are trashed. You'll never get the moly coating off without ruining the plates. IMO
Do you even realize that Mobil's Motorcycle oils and 'some' other brands of motorcycle oils DO in fact contain moly?
Saying that oil containing moly causes clutches to slip is like saying foods or beverages containing alcohol will make you drunk. Too much alcohol in your system will certainly cause problems, but it depends on the type and quantity of food & alcohol consumed. It's the same with moly in that too much moly or too much of any one thing in the oil for that matter will likely cause problems.
There may be other factors at work here that caused this condition such as too much of a specfic friction reducer or a combination of friction reducers or maybe the clutch disks glazed because the oil broke down while the rider was thrashing the ATV in the dunes or maybe the ATV's clutch cable was recently adjusted and didn't have enough slack in it, or maybe the discs were already at their service limit, etc, etc, etc.
Ignore KBFXDLI's FUD--there is no empirical evidence that the moly used in modern oils causes a healthy clutch to slip.
Sorry, but you are the FUD...the use of moly in wet clutch applications is only done by people who spend lots of cash on expensive bikes then cheap out on the oil because they don't understand the difference in additive packages. Ask ANY Amsoil guy on this forum. OR better yet go live at WalMart where you came from.
AMSOIL MCF VOA
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000324#000000
One of my UOA's using MCF 10W-40
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000069
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000324#000000
One of my UOA's using MCF 10W-40
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=000069
I have done some research on this and you're simply wrong again and again and your credibility is quickly disappearing. For the last year or so, Mobil’s motorcycle oils have contained moly in the add pack. ‘Bob’ the oil guy is also a motorcycle enthusiast and the oil he uses and recommends to everyone contains moly. There are many oils out there for motorcycles that DO in fact contain moly and you don’t have to look far to find this information. Rather than me posting my own VOA's, I'll just reference the VOA's that have already been posted here on BITOG. Here's a VOA Mobil MX4T, which is their motorcycle oil and it clearly shows it contains moly in the add pack.
http://www.butler-machinery.com/resources/NewOils/Mobil 1 MX4T 10W40.jpg
Here's another VOA for Mobil V-Twin and again, it clearly shows it contains moly in the add pack.
http://www.butler-machinery.com/resources/NewOils/Mobil 1 V Twin 20W50.jpg
Mobil 15W50 is also commonly used in motorcycles with wet clutches (including Harley’s) and even Mobil's own Technical Advisor and their OEM Motorcycle Market Advisor have publicly said this product should also be fine for use in motorcycles, including Harley’s. Would you the names of these people at Mobil, because I can dig them out and provide them if needed? Again, here's a VOA on it and as you can see, it too has Moly in the add pack.
http://www.butler-machinery.com/resources/NewOils/Mobil 1 EP 15W50.jpg
The above VOA’s can be referenced in the following BITOG thread.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000408
Here’s a VOA of Redline’s 10W40 posted here on BITOG. OMG, it too contains moly!
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000316#000000
And yet another VOA of Redline 15W40 that clearly shows moly in the add pack. http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000332
And here’s a VOA of Golden Spectro’s 4 stroke 10W40 motorcycle oil and again there’s moly in it.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000323
Oh yeah, let’s not forget Amsoil because here’s a VOA of Amsoil’s MCF 10W40 Motorcycle oil and it also contains moly in the add pack.
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000324
Powroll is a well known 4 stroke motorcycle engine shop that’s been in business for over 40 years and the oil they’ve been personally using and selling to their customers for a number of years contains moly in the add pack. Here’s a link.
http://www.powroll.com/P_OIL.htm
Rather than me continuing to post VOA’s just for the purpose of enlightening you, why don’t you try using the search function here on BITOG and other forums to educate yourself or take the next step and send in some samples for analysis for your own VOA’s library, which incidentally is only good for that period of time because formulations can and do change and without notice to you. Motul’s 300V is yet another oil that contains moly whether it’s their 5W40 or their 15W50, etc. Schaeffer is yet another company selling oils for motorcycle use that contain moly and it’s clearly listed in the tech specs on their web site that it’s safe for wet clutch use. I could go on and on, but why? I think most people with an open mind and some common sense can figure this out for their self.
qadsan, thanks for the excellent post!
KBFXDLI, I've been using Red Line 10W-40, which shows around 600 PPM of moly, for over 3,000 miles now and have no clutch problems. Oh, and this is in a $2,500 KLR650 I bought used, so no spending lots of cash on an expensive bike, nor cheaping out on oil. We also recently had a thread where not a single person reading this forum has ever had first-hand experience with moly causing clutch problems.
KBFXDLI, I've been using Red Line 10W-40, which shows around 600 PPM of moly, for over 3,000 miles now and have no clutch problems. Oh, and this is in a $2,500 KLR650 I bought used, so no spending lots of cash on an expensive bike, nor cheaping out on oil. We also recently had a thread where not a single person reading this forum has ever had first-hand experience with moly causing clutch problems.
I have seen many examples of clutch failures that were immediately blamed on the fluid that was used. Each and every instance the fluid had nothing to do with it, other than it was sheared down to water. Most often if a clutch slips, it is becauce of clutch abuse.
Sacked out springs and plates glazed from keeping fluid in long after it has sheared down and the add pack depleted, are the major culprits.
Track myths and mis-informative dealerspeak abounds in the motorpsort world. Backed up by clever marketing, and consumer ignorance.
It's just that simple.
Heck, don't believe it?...just go to the top of this thread and read it all again.
Classic examples are right here for our reading pleasure.
Sacked out springs and plates glazed from keeping fluid in long after it has sheared down and the add pack depleted, are the major culprits.
Track myths and mis-informative dealerspeak abounds in the motorpsort world. Backed up by clever marketing, and consumer ignorance.
It's just that simple.
Heck, don't believe it?...just go to the top of this thread and read it all again.
Classic examples are right here for our reading pleasure.
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