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#4723498 - 04/11/18 10:54 AM Castrol 0w40 and LSPI
tcp71 Offline


Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Alberta
After the recent surge of hand-wringing and warnings not to run any 0wXX oil in a direct injection turbo/supercharged engine, how come so many euro manufacturers of these types of engine spec an oil with such a wide viscosity range. With a calcium level of 23XX shouldn't this oil have pistons self destructing left and right? Odd you it seems to work well despite the calcium. For Example:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723264/2016_Audi_S4_19,200_Miles_-_Ca

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#4723509 - 04/11/18 11:09 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8999
Loc: Southeast Florida
Ca isn't the only additive affecting LSPI either positively or otherwise... The oil may contain Ca or even Sodium but if Moly, Boron, Zinc are present, they may cancel out the negatives of the aforementioned Ca and Sodium.


https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

_________________________
17 Sonata Sport 2.4L
NAPA Full Synthetic 5w20 | OEM

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
Valvoline MaxLife 5w30 | M1-104

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#4723563 - 04/11/18 11:59 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1623
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
I ran Castrol 0w40 in my VW GTI for 5 yrs without a single issue and netted me the best MPG's and Best UOA's.

If it meets the spec set by the manufacturer? Then Use it.


Jeff
_________________________
"You don't have to be crazy to do this... But it helps." Bob Ross.

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#4723582 - 04/11/18 12:19 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
jakeyjohn1 Offline


Registered: 04/03/18
Posts: 11
Loc: Los Angeles
VW specifically recommends a 5W40 or 5W30 grade oil that meets their VW 502 00 or VW 504 00 specifications for their German built direct injected turbo charged Golf R. I've been trying to reason why they only recommend those weights, when 0W40 and 0W30 oils have similar kinematic viscosity at ambient and operating temperatures.

I can't find any warnings against using a 0WXX oil in this application, can you help point me in the right direction to find some of that information? The general consensus on this forum seems to be to use a 0W40 oil for VW's direct injected turbo charged engine: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723224/1


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#4723667 - 04/11/18 01:33 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
dlundblad Offline


Registered: 09/30/13
Posts: 10205
Loc: Indiana
I'm not seeing any hand wringing over running 0w oils.

In fact, I would run a 5w and 0w interchangeably.
_________________________
03 Jeep WJ 4.0 199k Castrol Edge 10w40 HM Fram XG16
02 Volvo S60 2.4T 177k M1 0w40 Mahle OX149D
97 Chevy Blazer 4.3 149k Rotella T5 10w30 Supertech ST3980


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#4723674 - 04/11/18 01:43 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: dlundblad]
SubieRubyRoo Offline


Registered: 05/14/12
Posts: 1232
Loc: Winchester, Indiana
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
I'm not seeing any hand wringing over running 0w oils.

In fact, I would run a 5w and 0w interchangeably.


Exactly. Operating viscosity still falls under the 20/30/40 weight categories, so there is essentially ZERO difference that the engine "sees" once at temperature. This is a nothingburger, use 0Ws the same as any 5W.

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#4723887 - 04/11/18 05:10 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5059
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: tcp71
After the recent surge of hand-wringing and warnings not to run any 0wXX oil in a direct injection turbo/supercharged engine, how come so many euro manufacturers of these types of engine spec an oil with such a wide viscosity range. With a calcium level of 23XX shouldn't this oil have pistons self destructing left and right? Odd you it seems to work well despite the calcium. For Example:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723264/2016_Audi_S4_19,200_Miles_-_Ca

Of course it works well, you get what you pay.
What I noticed LSPI is present in engines that are:
1. On cheaper side
2. Use ILSAC GF-5 oils to make it more convenient and cheaper for customer and also gain MPG.
What that warning is: do not use 0Wxx oils that are energy conserving. ACEA A3/B3 B4 oils are different animal.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4723889 - 04/11/18 05:11 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: jakeyjohn1]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5059
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: jakeyjohn1
VW specifically recommends a 5W40 or 5W30 grade oil that meets their VW 502 00 or VW 504 00 specifications for their German built direct injected turbo charged Golf R. I've been trying to reason why they only recommend those weights, when 0W40 and 0W30 oils have similar kinematic viscosity at ambient and operating temperatures.

I can't find any warnings against using a 0WXX oil in this application, can you help point me in the right direction to find some of that information? The general consensus on this forum seems to be to use a 0W40 oil for VW's direct injected turbo charged engine: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723224/1


VW is notorious for confusing oil recommendations. It is an attempt by VW to make it easier to usually ignorant American driver to choose right oil.
Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40 FS, etc, etc. are all APPROVED by VW!
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4723925 - 04/11/18 05:55 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: edyvw]
wemay Offline


Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 8999
Loc: Southeast Florida
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: tcp71
After the recent surge of hand-wringing and warnings not to run any 0wXX oil in a direct injection turbo/supercharged engine, how come so many euro manufacturers of these types of engine spec an oil with such a wide viscosity range. With a calcium level of 23XX shouldn't this oil have pistons self destructing left and right? Odd you it seems to work well despite the calcium. For Example:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723264/2016_Audi_S4_19,200_Miles_-_Ca

Of course it works well, you get what you pay.
What I noticed LSPI is present in engines that are:
1. On cheaper side
2. Use ILSAC GF-5 oils to make it more convenient and cheaper for customer and also gain MPG.
What that warning is: do not use 0Wxx oils that are energy conserving. ACEA A3/B3 B4 oils are different animal.


IMO and from all the research i've read, it has nothing to do with cheaper engines or ILSAC. The technology of small displacement plus turbo is the issue and it's happened across the spectrum of auto makers.

I've used d1G2 and A3/B4 in the SFS 2.0T so i have no dog in the fight.
_________________________
17 Sonata Sport 2.4L
NAPA Full Synthetic 5w20 | OEM

13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T
Valvoline MaxLife 5w30 | M1-104

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#4723968 - 04/11/18 06:54 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: wemay]
edyvw Offline


Registered: 03/08/12
Posts: 5059
Loc: Colorado Springs
Originally Posted By: wemay
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: tcp71
After the recent surge of hand-wringing and warnings not to run any 0wXX oil in a direct injection turbo/supercharged engine, how come so many euro manufacturers of these types of engine spec an oil with such a wide viscosity range. With a calcium level of 23XX shouldn't this oil have pistons self destructing left and right? Odd you it seems to work well despite the calcium. For Example:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4723264/2016_Audi_S4_19,200_Miles_-_Ca

Of course it works well, you get what you pay.
What I noticed LSPI is present in engines that are:
1. On cheaper side
2. Use ILSAC GF-5 oils to make it more convenient and cheaper for customer and also gain MPG.
What that warning is: do not use 0Wxx oils that are energy conserving. ACEA A3/B3 B4 oils are different animal.


IMO and from all the research i've read, it has nothing to do with cheaper engines or ILSAC. The technology of small displacement plus turbo is the issue and it's happened across the spectrum of auto makers.

I've used d1G2 and A3/B4 in the SFS 2.0T so i have no dog in the fight.

Yet, 0W40 is used in 1.2TSI engines, 0.9 Ford turbos etc.
You think 2.0T is "small" engine? Go rent a car in Germany or France.
ILSAC is the problem and requirements or lack of it when it comes to those oils and generally engines.
_________________________
13' BMW X5 35d (Mobil1 5W30 ESP+OEM filter)
11' VW Tiguan 2.0T (Castrol 0W40+MANN filter)

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#4724030 - 04/11/18 07:58 PM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
benjy Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 909
Loc: pa
all finished oils are blends of various viscosities aka centistokes + the add pack to meet a spec. 0W oils require either costlier base oils like PAO or Ester to BECOME a 40W @ 100c from an O-W oil, thinner base oils burn off quicker even with better quality, the cheaper "synthetic" group III oils likely use more viscosity improvers that are great when new but get used up as the miles add up. i would say cheaper parts like GM's 1.5T pistons that are failing could be part of the issue. for sure its an issue for some as the quest for performance + MPG's using smaller higher output engines continue. with DI allowing higher cylinder pressures with turbos it surely adds to engine stresses as this was NOT a problem with older engines!!!


Edited by benjy (04/11/18 08:01 PM)

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#4724346 - 04/12/18 06:49 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4068
Loc: New England
I typed up a longer post yesterday and found that I had been logged out when I went to submit it, post was gone. Not sure why I have been getting booted off automatically lately...

Engine design must be a factor here...the Subaru 2.0l (FXT and WRX) and GM 1.5l (Malibu) DITs have been recalled for LSPI in the US and I am not sure about the Hyundai 1.6l (Veloster Turbo). The last engine had a real blowup problem when it was first introduced and the ECU was reprogrammed in later models, but I can't find any record of a recall. Ford has made lots of Ecoboost DITs and they do not seem to have a systemic LSPI problem, but there are some reports online of engine losses in LSPI-like circumstances...maybe Ford has the secret sauce?
As wemay has mentioned, calcium- and sodium-based detergents will tend to lead to more LSPI events while MoDTC and (particularly) ZDDP will tend to mitigate LSPI. It is certainly quite possible that a ~2500ppmish Ca oil that also has a higher level of ZDDP than a typical SN/GF5 product will not tend to trigger LSPI...the plot of LSPI events vs. ZDDP levels seemed to decline dramatically through the GF5 range and I used to add a touch of Rislone ZDDP additive to my oil in the pre-d1G2 days in an attempt to ride that slope down.
Driving style and auto transmission programming can also have a big effect, it is Low Speed PreIgnition and happens when the engine is heavily loaded at low RPM. My tranny is programmed to use boost before revs when I first get on it in auto mode, I think to increase fuel economy, so that tends to put me in the LSPI region unless I go "manual" through paddle shifting or use the downshift paddle to force an increase in revs in auto mode (I like the latter trick a lot). A driver in a high performance DIT with a stick is probably very likely to downshift aggressively when he really gets on it and very rarely be in the LSPI region of engine operation.

I had already learned about LSPI before my car was recalled for it and was using M1 5W30s that I knew had low calcium levels and no sodium, the issue was a bad combination of destructive and not well understood and I decided to play the percentages to try to avoid it while also using high quality oils with good reputations. I was pretty happy when my car was found to have no real damage in the recall, leakdown test results were great and my plugs were a bit dirty but the electrodes were all intact. May have had the same results on oils high in calcium and sodium, no way to know but, again, I like the idea of playing the percentages in my favor.

I think DIT owners should be aware of LSPI, once they know about it they can make their own decision about oil...heck, they can sell their car and walk to work because they're terrified of LSPI, I don't care. The information should be out there to be discussed openly, make of it what you will.


Edited by Virtus_Probi (04/12/18 06:50 AM)
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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#4724390 - 04/12/18 07:27 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4068
Loc: New England
BTW, I don't remember hearing anything about not using 0WXX oils with DIT engines...I have mentioned quite a few times that people should not assume that M1 0W40 is low in calcium just because most of the rest of that line is.
There is only one 0W30 d1G2 oil at the moment, M1 AFE...dexos2 have several more 0W30/40 choices.
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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#4724522 - 04/12/18 09:51 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
tcp71 Offline


Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 291
Loc: Alberta
Thanks for the responses.

I think I was mixing information a bit and the link above clarified things a bit.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4722107/1

I have a 2016 F150 with the 3.5 eco engine. It has a single looong timing chain that goes up both banks of cylinders as well as two turbos and a history of fuel dilution. This engine will run at very low RPMs under high load due to transmission programming (1100rpm up a steep hill without downshifting) which it has the torque to do, but not sure if it is in LSPI territory.

I have tried pup 5w30 and castrol 0w40 in it. No actual test information, but the 0w40 runs quieter and with less startup clatter (same FL500s filter all the time). I can get both on sale for about the same price and have a stockpile of 0w40 (25 liters or so). I drive quite conservatively 95% of the time with some occasional bursts and trailer towing in the summer. I think priority 1 is to maintain the timing chain as previous years of the same engine have recalls for the chain/tensioners/phasers. Secondary to that is any LSPI concerns.

Stick with castrol?


Edited by tcp71 (04/12/18 09:53 AM)

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#4724555 - 04/12/18 10:14 AM Re: Castrol 0w40 and LSPI [Re: tcp71]
Virtus_Probi Offline


Registered: 06/25/15
Posts: 4068
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: tcp71
Thanks for the responses.

...

Stick with castrol?


I know LSPI is not your main concern, but dexos2 also includes an LSPI test and Castrol Edge 0W40 is listed as having that license. I'm not sure if d2 includes a timing chain test like d1G2, but d2 is HTHS>3.5 while d1G2 is HTHS<3.5 so the former might be better suited to hard duty like towing.

https://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2/

Not sure if this is the same Castrol you are using, it has always seemed to me that brand has a dizzying array of variants for the popular grades and I can't keep track of them. Guess M1 is similar with EP/AP/AFE/ESP/HM/AAAHHHHH!!!
;^)
_________________________
2014 Forester XT, 86000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter

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