Recent Topics
Toyota Genuine oil 10W30
by gordond. 09/22/18 09:27 AM
Good Dealers
by HowAboutThis. 09/22/18 09:12 AM
electric brakes rely on heat to work?
by motor_oil_madman. 09/22/18 09:09 AM
help please 7.25 briggs idle too fast
by edwardh1. 09/22/18 08:49 AM
Java update and Flash not working
by JLTD. 09/22/18 08:47 AM
Bought a Giulia
by RamFan. 09/22/18 08:38 AM
Toyota Genuine oil 10W30
by gordond. 09/22/18 08:37 AM
Mobil 1 Extended Protection High Mileage Test
by njohnson. 09/22/18 07:57 AM
WPA 3 Wireless Security Coming
by StevieC. 09/22/18 01:16 AM
Robo Calls/Telemarketers
by Nick1994. 09/22/18 12:47 AM
What oil should be used!
by BigShug681. 09/22/18 12:28 AM
VW Electronic Parking Brake
by StevieC. 09/21/18 11:48 PM
Leak Sealing and Mould Treatments?
by Ducked. 09/21/18 11:44 PM
UPS / FedEx / USPS
by StevieC. 09/21/18 11:21 PM
puncture repair question
by neo3. 09/21/18 10:55 PM
Can I use a 10 amp extension cord for...
by gregk24. 09/21/18 10:48 PM
In the unlikely event of a crash
by StevieC. 09/21/18 10:09 PM
Craigslist time wasters
by Anduril. 09/21/18 09:41 PM
Newest Members
Sarrge, Big_R, gordond, mrgreggn, JRMFt11
66040 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
96 registered members (2015_PSD, 77GrandPrix, 53' Stude, 2004tdigls, 2013ecof150, 14Accent, 10 invisible), 1,717 guests, and 42 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics290,820
Posts4,850,928
Members66,040
Most Online3,590
Jan 24th, 2017
Donate to BITOG
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness #4719728
04/07/18 05:22 PM
04/07/18 05:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 67
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 67
Azerbaijan
Hi Friends,
This is not another "Which is better, thin or thick oil?" thread. As there are tons of discussions about it in this forum smile
But i am a little confused, because Shell's research has different results compared with other researches. (Likely i have missed the point.)

Shell Research:
Quote:
The assumption that lower viscosity lubricants automatically give rise to thinner oil films in
key lubricated contacts in a gasoline engine is also open to question, particularly in the case
of piston rings. Laser Induced Fluorescence measurements have found that, in a Nissan
gasoline engine, the mid-stroke top ring oil film thickness was greater for an SAE-5W/20
lubricant than it was for an SAE-15W/40 lubricant. These effects were also observed in our
laboratory for monograde lubricants. Similar effects have been observed by S.L. Moore of
BP36. Figure 20 illustrates the observations. A qualitative explanation of such an effect
could be as follows : There are two routes by which lubricant reaches the top piston ring.
Route #1 (the “conventional” route) is that oil is left on the liner by the passage of the
preceding ring. The higher the oil viscosity, the larger will be the oil film thickness left on
the liner. Route #2 involves oil being transported to the top piston ring via the ring gaps
(such flows have been observed by Nakashima et al37), and this is thought to favour lower
viscosity lubricants. The precise balance between oil transported by the two routes will
determine whether the oil film thickness under the top ring is greater for a lower viscosity
oil or not.


However, another research shows that OFT is higher with 20w40 than 10w40
Quote:
Comparison of the performance of both SAE
10W40 and SAE 20W40, showed that the increase of
frictional power losses and oil film thickness in case of
SAE 20W40 was strongly related to its high viscosity
compared with SAE 10W40. The high viscosity of the
SAE 20W40 was substantially responsible for the
increase in shear stress in oil film, and could be a
strong reason for the increase in hydrodynamic friction
with the use of the SAE 20W40 oil.



Another research:
Quote:
The oils were compared with each other at different loads and speeds as depicted in
Figure 4.29 and Figure 4.30. Oils 026A, 001C, 004B and 001A which have similar
viscosity give similar OFT and oil AW004 which has the lowest viscosity of all oils
shows a smaller OFT, as expected. On the other hand, oil 097A has the highest OFT as
it has the highest viscosity.


Source:
https://priuschat.com/attachments/fuel-efficient-motor-oil-technical-article-pdf.11772/
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...bustion_engines
http://openaccess.city.ac.uk/11916/1/Oil%20Transport%20in%20Piston%20Ring%20Assemblies.pdf

Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719807
04/07/18 06:34 PM
04/07/18 06:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,288
Kansan,1911 45ACP fan
Marco620 Offline
Marco620  Offline
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,288
Kansan,1911 45ACP fan
Interesting read. Thank you for posting.


15' Civic 179k.0w20 Redline/Archoil9100,Eibach,Yokohama/Borla Exhaust/Tein Suspension/Fu7317/Redline Si-1
Right to work state proud. Non union household
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719831
04/07/18 07:02 PM
04/07/18 07:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,235
Iowegia - USA
I agree with Shell.

This

Quote:
The high viscosity of the SAE 20W40 was substantially responsible for the increase in shear stress in oil film, and could be a strong reason for the increase in hydrodynamic friction with the use of the SAE 20W40 oil.


is discussing the fact that higher viscosity oils result in higher hydrodynamic friction and shear stress, a different topic. The thicker the oil, the more HP you're putting into the oil to shear it and the higher the oil temp.

OFT and MOFT are highly dependent on base oil types and additives. I can can have a low viscosity finished oil show good OFT and MOST by the selection of different base oil viscosities, base oil types, and vII's used.

As for the third article, what was the Delta OFT between the two oills?

Furthermore, I doubt all three studies used the same type of engine or test equipment, loads, etc.





Last edited by MolaKule; 04/07/18 07:08 PM.

Reading is fundamental; understanding is not a given ability.
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719851
04/07/18 07:20 PM
04/07/18 07:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,614
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,614
Taiwan
The Shell quote gives two of the mechanisms potentially involved in the piston ring situation, and suggests that thicker oil films can develop in that situation with thinner oil because it gets past the rings in greater volume, i.e. there is more flow.

As I read it, this is to some extent a special case, and does not conflict with the general positive relationship between viscosity and film thickness, where the supply of oil is not limited.

Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719861
04/07/18 07:31 PM
04/07/18 07:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,232
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: NICAT

Shell Research:
Quote:
Laser Induced Fluorescence measurements have found ....



I would like to know a little more of how this testing method functions.


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719871
04/07/18 07:37 PM
04/07/18 07:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,526
Marshfield , MA
andyd Offline
andyd  Offline
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 7,526
Marshfield , MA
Rings are not my primary concerns Bearings and cam lobes, then rings. hide


'16 Camry LE STP synth 0w20 and STP filter. the Fridge

1994 Ranger ,the Rat, 5w30 dino, STP filter

'16 Camry SE, Valvoline HM 0w20 and OEM filter
Thick oil is better grin2
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4719917
04/07/18 08:13 PM
04/07/18 08:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,751
New Zealand
Silk Offline
Silk  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,751
New Zealand
I've replaced far, far more rings than bearings or camshafts because of wear....


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: Silk] #4719963
04/07/18 08:58 PM
04/07/18 08:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,692
PNW
ZeeOSix Offline
ZeeOSix  Offline
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 18,692
PNW
Originally Posted By: Silk
I've replaced far, far more rings than bearings or camshafts because of wear....


I was just going to say that rings tend to wear out more than most other lubricated parts.

Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: Silk] #4720051
04/07/18 10:37 PM
04/07/18 10:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,981
MN
oil_film_movies Offline
oil_film_movies  Offline
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,981
MN
Originally Posted By: Silk
I've replaced far, far more rings than bearings or camshafts because of wear....
Yer Lord of the Rings! Shot in NZ.

Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: Ducked] #4720110
04/08/18 01:04 AM
04/08/18 01:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
Originally Posted By: Ducked
The Shell quote gives two of the mechanisms potentially involved in the piston ring situation, and suggests that thicker oil films can develop in that situation with thinner (lower viscosity) oil because it gets past the rings in greater volume, i.e. there is more flow.

As I read it, this is to some extent a special case, and does not conflict with the general positive relationship between viscosity and film thickness, where the supply of oil is not limited.


I think you nailed it Ducked. (Slight add to above for clarity)

Quote:
Route #2 involves oil being transported to the top piston ring via the ring gaps, and this is thought to favour lower viscosity lubricants.

This is one of the special cases where flow is one of the limiting effects. For general engine lubrication, in a moderate / warm temperatures, the constant displacement oil pump gives the same flow for all reasonable viscosities. So normally flow is not a limitation. Here the small gap in the rings allows more low viscosity oil through, and given that the ring space is not saturated and can take more, then this does help.

Very interesting point.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: Linctex] #4720113
04/08/18 01:33 AM
04/08/18 01:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 67
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 67
Azerbaijan
Originally Posted By: Linctex


I would like to know a little more of how this testing method functions.


https://www.dantecdynamics.com/measurement-principles-of-planar-lif

Originally Posted By: andyd
Rings are not my primary concerns Bearings and cam lobes, then rings. hide


My car has over 1.000.000 km on it, and both camshaft and crankshaft were in great condition during the rebuilt. Only replaced the rings.
Not sure about bearings, but they were not causing any symptoms smile Just replaced them also, since they were cheap.
Cheapest mineral oil was used the whole time.


Last edited by NICAT; 04/08/18 01:50 AM.
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4720119
04/08/18 02:18 AM
04/08/18 02:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,655
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,655
Balearic Islands , Spain
Locally here in Spain a company called Cepsa ( major Spanish oil company ) makes a Mineral 20W-40 API SF/CF oil, it has quite high Zddp and is very cheap and i've been tempted to try it in the Capri for some time and see how it likes it compared to 20W-50 smile


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4720120
04/08/18 02:21 AM
04/08/18 02:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
SR5 Offline
SR5  Offline
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,624
Down Under
That's great 1 million KM on cheap mineral oil.

May I ask a few questions?
- what car / engine
- what oil viscosity (eg 15W40)
- what oil specification (eg API SL)
- what oil change interval (OCI)

Thanks in advance.


Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: SR5] #4720151
04/08/18 04:08 AM
04/08/18 04:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,614
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,614
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: Ducked
The Shell quote gives two of the mechanisms potentially involved in the piston ring situation, and suggests that thicker oil films can develop in that situation with thinner (lower viscosity) oil because it gets past the rings in greater volume, i.e. there is more flow.

As I read it, this is to some extent a special case, and does not conflict with the general positive relationship between viscosity and film thickness, where the supply of oil is not limited.


I think you nailed it Ducked. (Slight add to above for clarity)

Quote:
Route #2 involves oil being transported to the top piston ring via the ring gaps, and this is thought to favour lower viscosity lubricants.

This is one of the special cases where flow is one of the limiting effects. For general engine lubrication, in a moderate / warm temperatures, the constant displacement oil pump gives the same flow for all reasonable viscosities. So normally flow is not a limitation. Here the small gap in the rings allows more low viscosity oil through, and given that the ring space is not saturated and can take more, then this does help.

Very interesting point.


Yeh, sorry. "Thinner oil" was definately ambiguous in that context.

Not happy about this.

Doesn't mesh with my "thicker is better" mantra and may contra-indicate my SAE40 / Delvac 15W40 blend.

Re: Effect of Oil Viscosity on Oil Film Thickness [Re: NICAT] #4720154
04/08/18 04:13 AM
04/08/18 04:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40,884
'Stralia
But there's other Shell papers that show increased oil consumption with thicker oils, and the rings being less able to scrape them off.

Rings are the area where I've come across diametrically contradictory studies

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

BOB IS THE OIL GUY® Powered by UBB.threads™