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Crankshaft rotation before engine starts #4719136
04/07/18 05:44 AM
04/07/18 05:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 115
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 115
Azerbaijan
Hi Friends,
I just wonder about this. When you start up the car, how long does it take for the oil to reach the piston rings ?
And, is higher number of crankshaft rotations before the engine start is good for cylinder wall lubrication ?
My car has GM, 4 Stroke SOHC engine, and surprisingly, the engine starts almost as soon as you turn the ignition key.
It sounds great, but does it mean that piston rings will starve for oil ? (Since the leftover oil at the cylinder wall from the previous operation will be burnt immediately in combustion chamber)
Regards.

Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719141
04/07/18 05:53 AM
04/07/18 05:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,749
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,749
MA, Mittelfranken.de
200 rpm is the average cranking speed so there isn't a whole lot of oil pressure building up at that rpm so the quicker it starts the better.
The oil left on the cylinder walls, bearings, cam and other internals is enough to keep things lubed until pressurized oil reaches it.


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719166
04/07/18 06:20 AM
04/07/18 06:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
Alex_V Offline
Alex_V  Offline
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,198
Campbellsville, KY
The high idle speed the engine momentarily goes to upon startup, in part, serves to get oil pumped/slung to the different areas quickly, but doesn't rev so high as to cause more harm than good before fresh oil gets there. An engine can build a little bit of oil pressure at cranking speed if cranked long enough, but that's hard on the starter and seems like a non-issue given the longevity of engines already.


To quote a friend, "Synthetics, man."

'85 GMC C3500, 454, 132K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 173K (totaled 2018, in rehab)
'85 Mercedes 300TD, OM617 turbo, 217K (wife's)
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719187
04/07/18 06:46 AM
04/07/18 06:46 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,457
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,457
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Dry starts are one of the duties of boundary lubrication-the ZDDP, titanium, or other deposits are left behind, along with some oil, to lubricate until the oil pump can deliver enough oil to everything. That's why I let the engine idle, no additional throttle, for 5-10 seconds (longer in cold weather with thicker diesel oil) before putting in gear and being easy on it until the temperature gauge hits the normal range.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719217
04/07/18 07:12 AM
04/07/18 07:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,328
SE British Columbia, Canada
Snagglefoot Offline
Snagglefoot  Offline
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 3,328
SE British Columbia, Canada
There are some videos in this forum showing how long it takes oil to reach the rocker arms and cam bearings. Anyone recall where they are? I think the general conclusion was donít lose sleep over it, the residual oil takes care of things until the pressurized oil reaches the components.

Last edited by Snagglefoot; 04/07/18 07:13 AM.

If you want the job done right......do it yourself.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: Snagglefoot] #4719232
04/07/18 07:30 AM
04/07/18 07:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,062
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Kira Offline
Kira  Offline
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,062
Champlain/Hudson Valley
Sis' old (1988) Jeep would crank through 2 full engine revs because two positioning sensors needed to go through their zeros (i read).

I always thought that was not a bad thing because it started oil on its way at the very least.

Never have I seen data one way or the other.

Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719268
04/07/18 08:01 AM
04/07/18 08:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,848
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,848
Balearic Islands , Spain
On my 1988 Escort, with 15W-40 HDEO at a temperature of about +15C ( 60F )it takes about 4 seconds for oil to appear at the top of the engine when started from cold.
I normally start it up, then let it run for 10-15 secs before getting going when started from cold ( Mechanical injection so runs a little rough the first few moments of running )


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: Snagglefoot] #4719269
04/07/18 08:01 AM
04/07/18 08:01 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 115
Azerbaijan
NICAT Offline OP
NICAT  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 115
Azerbaijan
Thanks for detailed answers.

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
There are some videos in this forum showing how long it takes oil to reach the rocker arms and cam bearings. Anyone recall where they are? I think the general conclusion was donít lose sleep over it, the residual oil takes care of things until the pressurized oil reaches the components.


Well, that is correct. But since my question is more about cylinder wall lubrication, wouldn't residual oil burnt there just after the first combustion process ?

Last edited by NICAT; 04/07/18 08:02 AM.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: Snagglefoot] #4719271
04/07/18 08:03 AM
04/07/18 08:03 AM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,848
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Offline
FordCapriDriver  Offline
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,848
Balearic Islands , Spain
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
There are some videos in this forum showing how long it takes oil to reach the rocker arms and cam bearings. Anyone recall where they are? I think the general conclusion was donít lose sleep over it, the residual oil takes care of things until the pressurized oil reaches the components.

+1


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719317
04/07/18 08:46 AM
04/07/18 08:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,611
Iowegia - USA
MolaKule Offline
MolaKule  Offline
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,611
Iowegia - USA
Originally Posted By: NICAT
Thanks for detailed answers.


Well, that is correct. But since my question is more about cylinder wall lubrication, wouldn't residual oil burnt there just after the first combustion process ?


Not sure about the last part of the sentence, but there should be some residual oil films in between the rings.

I would say sometime during the first complete rev you're going to have oil sling up to the cylinder wall and underside of the piston crown. Not to mention that Boundary Lubrication is acting due to the additive package.

I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Last edited by MolaKule; 04/07/18 08:47 AM.

Scars remind us of where we have been, but do not have to dictate where we are going.
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719320
04/07/18 08:49 AM
04/07/18 08:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,457
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,457
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: NICAT
Thanks for detailed answers.

Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
There are some videos in this forum showing how long it takes oil to reach the rocker arms and cam bearings. Anyone recall where they are? I think the general conclusion was donít lose sleep over it, the residual oil takes care of things until the pressurized oil reaches the components.


Well, that is correct. But since my question is more about cylinder wall lubrication, wouldn't residual oil burnt there just after the first combustion process ?
Piston rings actually (if they're not severely worn) scrape the oil off the walls (at least the oil control rings do) and accumulate excess oil between them and the piston, which drains through the slots under the rings back down to the sump. Usually oil is returned by piston oil squirters or being slung off the big end rod bearings on the crank-both of which (IMHO) would be adversely affected by thick, cold, high viscosity oil. That's why I baby an engine until temperature starts to increase & oil is flying all over the crankcase.


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719345
04/07/18 09:08 AM
04/07/18 09:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,043
Illinois
tig1 Offline
tig1  Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 14,043
Illinois
In my Ford 2.3 and 2.5 engines I removed the oil fill cap where you can see one of the cams. With a light, I had my wife start the engine and oil was immediately flying around the cam. This was the first start of the day. So don't be concerned except if you are using an oil too thick for cold temp starts where flow may be an issue.. Otherwise you are good.

Last edited by tig1; 04/07/18 09:08 AM.

2007 Ford Fusion 236,000 miles
M1 0-20 EP
2017 Ford Fusion 62K
M1 0-20 EP
10,000 mile OCIs on both engines
M1 ATF and Valvoline LV
M1 10-30 in all OPE
MC filters

Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: Snagglefoot] #4719361
04/07/18 09:28 AM
04/07/18 09:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,417
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 7,417
Waco, TX
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
I think the general conclusion was donít lose sleep over it, the residual oil takes care of things until the pressurized oil reaches the components.


Correct.... The residual oil stays on for years,

I have disassembled engines that have sat ďunrunĒ for decades,
& there was still plenty of oil on all the internal parts


"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Crankshaft rotation before engine starts [Re: NICAT] #4719445
04/07/18 11:35 AM
04/07/18 11:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,114
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 6,114
Kalifornia Kollective
Rings never see pumped oil anyway. It's always sling oil off the crank. They can live on residual oil film for many minutes before they start to have issues.

The oil is not all burnt off. Burning requires that a substance reaches combustion temp. The water cooled cylinder walls prevent the oil film from completely flashing off. There is always a molecule or two thick oil film on even the upper walls exposed to combustion gasses smile

Last edited by BrocLuno; 04/07/18 11:36 AM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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