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#4717918 - 04/06/18 05:47 AM Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much?
bob15 Offline


Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Connecticut
I was looking at getting my 1967 Camaro out of hibernation in another month or so. The car hasn't been driven much in the past 20 years due to changing priorities in life. With that being said I was looking at several different "high zddp" oils including: Lucas, Schaeffer, Brad Penn and Valvoline (not interested in RP & Amsoil, nor additives).

My question isn't so much what brand, but rather how much zddp is too much. From what I can gather, when going over 2000ppm, issues can arise with bearing and corrosiveness; but both Lucas Hot Rod and Schaeffer # 709 have numbers pushing or above 2000ppm, whereas BP and Valvoline are 1100-1500.

If above 2000ppm is bad, or at least pushing the envelope of bad, why do they offer it? Do their other additive packages combat the corrosiveness?

I was planning on using BP, but then got thinking and started reading the 'net and it seemed that the Schaeffer might be a better oil. I am going to be buying Schaeffer's #158 compressor oil, so one thought to to tack their #709 onto the order, but I am nervous about using an oil that could eat my bearings....LOL

Any insight to having zddp over 2000ppm right out of teh bottle and if it would/will do harm?

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#4717947 - 04/06/18 06:22 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4289
Loc: Down Under
Right now I'm using Penrite Vantage 10W40 with 1220 ppm zinc.

Previously I have used, for many years on end, Penrite HPR30 with 1530 ppm zinc. This was the Aussie go-to performance oil back in the day, and may people used it for many years without issues. It's been around with that level of zinc for at least three decades.

How much is too much is very open to debate. We were talking about it in this thread recently
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4622205/


Edited by SR5 (04/06/18 06:25 AM)
Edit Reason: link
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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#4718037 - 04/06/18 07:52 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
Alex_V Offline


Registered: 04/10/16
Posts: 1117
Loc: Campbellsville, KY
What kind/how hot an engine is in your car? If it's stock or calm I'd go with their regular 7000 10w30. I've had it in my '85 GMC 1-ton (flat-tappet 454) for over 30,000 mi. and it performs great. Schaeffer's oils are very tough so I think a lower ZDDP formulation from Schaeffer's might still outperform others.
_________________________
I like Chevy and Valvoline.

'13 Cruze, 1.4T, 110K
'85 GMC C3500, 454, 130K
'82 Mercedes 300CD, OM617 turbo, 165K
'67 Suburban, 350, 331K

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#4718067 - 04/06/18 08:23 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
SVTCobra Offline


Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 694
Loc: Battle Creek, MI
709 is a racing oil. I'd use their 7 or 9000 series of diesel oil. More ZDDP than the gasoline version and sufficient for your Camaro.
_________________________
If marriage was outlawed only outlaws would have in-laws.

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#4718068 - 04/06/18 08:25 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
bob15 Offline


Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Connecticut
It's a fairly hot 327.....definitely not stock. The RPM band starts at 25000erpm. Engine has: 12.5:1 compression, big cam, big valves, roller rockers, 750 carter carb, etc.

And yes, I do like banging gears with it.

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#4718149 - 04/06/18 09:15 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5226
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
OK, it's carb'd so it'll be rich on cold start. When you say "big cam" who's and which lifters to go with it? Valve spring pressures if you have them? The deal is that you need to prime the carb (fill the float bowl through the vent) so you are not cranking and cranking to get it started, then bring it up to 2,300 or a bit more for 5 minutes. That'll sling oil the cam and lifters. It has a oil film, but it is very thin from sitting ...

Depending on spring pressures and cam maker, you could go anywhere from 800 PPM ZDDP and really good base stocks, to 1,500 PPM ZDDP and specialty oils ...

It's a small block Chevy, but being as it's a 327 it has a steel crank and very likely a good cam and Delphi or Johnson lifters. 327 stuff was mostly made before the deplorable "soft" cam phase that GM and the aftermarket went through frown

My preferred oil for these sorts of situations is Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) with about 1,200 PPM ZDDP which is all you need for anything other than a full race drag or roundy-round engine. But, it seems to be getting harder to find and is getting pricey.

Fall back oils for me and engines with big cams and heavy springs is John Deere Plus 50 III or Mystic JT8 which also have 1,200 PPM ZDDP and very stout base oils.

Redline makes a wonderful oil for this sort of application, but at $12/qt it's pricey.

Valvoline VR-1 (silver bottle) has been the go-to oil for the Chevy crowd for a long time. It also has the right ZDDP levels for almost any engine that will actually run on the street. Here's a link to an oil survey I ran over at Chevelles dot com: Survey These are some very stout engines. Some of these folks are in the 9's in all steel bodies with roll up windows. SO I know their engines are hitting the oil hard. Many, many threads there about oil and flat tappet cams ...

Been up and down this road a few times. I'd run VR-1 and change it every 3,000 miles due to fuel dilution. Prolly xW-30 if you can't get the Chevron lube locally ...

1,200 PPM (+) is your target for ZDDP and really good base oil stocks. Dino or Syn does not matter. There is no proof that one actually lubes better than the other. And short oil changes mean the syn is not actually netting you any benefit ... I'd use dino as the residual oil film thickness is usually better.

Run a two quart oil filter if it'll fit? Any NAPA store can look up and interchange for you. I'd run a NAPA Gold, but a Baldwin/Hastings will work well too smile


Edited by BrocLuno (04/06/18 09:21 AM)
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4718177 - 04/06/18 09:35 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
bob15 Offline


Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Connecticut
Isky .505 lift, Isky lifters & springs (I thought Isky was making them when this engine was built, though I could be wrong). Comp Cam roller rockers. TRW pop-up pistons, Sealed Power rings, Vandervell bearings, Fuelie heads, 2.02 SS valves. Don't remember the spring/valve pressure is (I built the engine in 1991....has 25-30k miles on the engine, but I just haven't driven the car much the past 20 years).

I will be doing a seal job on it, as I need to pull the engine to change the bottom pan out, so it will be easy enough to do on an engine stand.

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#4718180 - 04/06/18 09:37 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
FordCapriDriver Offline


Registered: 10/22/15
Posts: 2322
Loc: Balearic Islands , Spain
I would just put some Shell ROTELLA t4 or T5 15W-40 or Delo 400 LE 15W-40 in it.
They have 1200-1300ppm of Zddp.
_________________________
1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6
1988 Ford Escort 1.6 Xr3i Convertible
Finnish expat living in Spain
My clothes smell like 15W-40 HDEO and 20W-50.

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#4718291 - 04/06/18 11:53 AM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
jakewells Offline


Registered: 12/28/12
Posts: 373
Loc: Cave City KY
Yeah i might get bashed for suggesting this.
Delo sae 30 CF/SL but it works well in my friends built 350 with solid lifters and i use it in my old 302 with great results.
chromium-0
nickel-0
aluminum-3
copper-0
lead-0
tin-0
cadmium-0
silver-0
vanadium-0
silicon-4
sodium-2
potassium-2
titanium-0
moly-103
antimony-1
mang-0
lithium-0
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
barium-0
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1
Oxidation-8
Nitration-4
_________________________
1994 Ford F150 302 4R70
Chevron Delo SAE 30 CF/SL Fram XG8A


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#4718488 - 04/06/18 03:24 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
BrocLuno Offline


Registered: 09/06/15
Posts: 5226
Loc: Kalifornia Kollective
Originally Posted By: bob15
Isky .505 lift, Isky lifters & springs (I thought Isky was making them when this engine was built, though I could be wrong). Comp Cam roller rockers. TRW pop-up pistons, Sealed Power rings, Vandervell bearings, Fuelie heads, 2.02 SS valves. Don't remember the spring/valve pressure is (I built the engine in 1991....has 25-30k miles on the engine, but I just haven't driven the car much the past 20 years).

I will be doing a seal job on it, as I need to pull the engine to change the bottom pan out, so it will be easy enough to do on an engine stand.


That's the perfect set-up for Valvoline VR-1. Isky stuff was never known for cam/lifter failures, so I would not be overly concerned. Those are usually very reliable parts and will run well with any modern oil over 1,000 PPM of ZDDP and good solid base oils. You have many oils to choose from smile



Edited by BrocLuno (04/06/18 03:24 PM)
_________________________
Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.

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#4718499 - 04/06/18 03:31 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: jakewells]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24051
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
I'm no fan of monogrades in general, but given the climate and usage pattern of this vehicle, I can't see their being a concern with a suitable monograde in the least.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4718592 - 04/06/18 05:02 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
bob15 Offline


Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Connecticut
When I started this thread, I also wrote to Schaeffer and asked what they recommended. Besides their recommendation they sent me a decent bulletin, but I cannot figure out how to post it due to being a PDF file. Anyone know how to load a PDF on this site?

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#4718659 - 04/06/18 05:51 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 24051
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
If you convert it to a picture file, you can upload it directly in a post here.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4718822 - 04/06/18 07:43 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: jakewells]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4289
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: jakewells

Delo sae 30 CF/SL but it works well in my friends built 350 with solid lifters and i use it in my old 302 with great results.
moly-103
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1

There is a lot of good to be said for a modern SAE 30 monograde if you are operating above freezing.

That Delo would be a Group II, so much better cold climate performance and oxidation stability, compared to the old school Group I monogrades.

High TBN, High ZDDP, lots of Moly & Boron....a excellent modern add package. Being Group II it would probably test out to be a 15W-30 or 20W-30, but completely shear stable and with very low Noack volatility (6 to 7% at a guess).
I think modern monogrades with a modern add package, are excellent and under appreciated oils with a lot to offer, in the right climate.
_________________________
Penrite Vantage 10W40 SN & A3/B4 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154

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#4718842 - 04/06/18 08:03 PM Re: Schaeffer 709 zddp amount too much? [Re: bob15]
bob15 Offline


Registered: 08/25/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Connecticut
Sorry for this style download, but I couldn't get the PDF onto a filmstrip for easier reading.











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