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#4715854 - 04/04/18 08:24 AM Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period
Kaiser Offline


Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 98
Loc: Deutschland - Stütgart
Hello all,

I don't know if this article was already posted here, I looked for it but I didn't see it anywhere...

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2007-01-4133/

I had seen on the forum (but I can not find the link) a person said that the oil had a "break-in period" and during this period the engine wear is higher.
So over an interval of 60000km, if we do 6 oil changes (every 10000km) instead of 2 oil change (every 30000km) we multiply by 3 the engine wear that was caused by the "running in oil".

What do you think about that ?
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2013 BMW F10 535i - BMW M TwinPower 0w-40
1994 BMW 850csi - Castrol Edge 10w-60

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#4715868 - 04/04/18 08:41 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
Cujet Offline


Registered: 02/15/03
Posts: 7139
Loc: Jupiter, Florida
Originally Posted By: Kaiser


What do you think about that ?


Incorrect. We know for a fact that extended oil change intervals increase cam chain and balancer chain wear. We also know that UOA wear metals testing shows lower wear metals in extended drain intervals. However, this is not indicative of wear rates. There have been many UOA results showing excellent wear metals on catastrophically failing engines.

Particulates build up and increase real world wear rates. Folks, change your oil and choose your viscosity carefully.
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#4715886 - 04/04/18 08:52 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
Kaiser Offline


Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 98
Loc: Deutschland - Stütgart
So the UOA are just a good way to know how an oil keeps its specs during its life and not to know the engine health


Edited by Kaiser (04/04/18 08:52 AM)
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#4715917 - 04/04/18 09:12 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39821
Loc: 'Stralia
That paper takes engine oils that are used.

Some have thickened to over double their original viscosity, and have TBNs that should be condemned.

Then applies those (used) oils to wear suurfaces and measures reductions in wear and friction.

The paper does NOT say that extended drains mean less wear.

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#4715921 - 04/04/18 09:16 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Shannow]
Kaiser Offline


Registered: 09/30/16
Posts: 98
Loc: Deutschland - Stütgart
Originally Posted By: Shannow
That paper takes engine oils that are used.

Some have thickened to over double their original viscosity, and have TBNs that should be condemned.

Then applies those (used) oils to wear suurfaces and measures reductions in wear and friction.

The paper does NOT say that extended drains mean less wear.


That what I was thinking but I wasn't sure.
thank for this confirmation
_________________________
2013 BMW F10 535i - BMW M TwinPower 0w-40
1994 BMW 850csi - Castrol Edge 10w-60

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#4716001 - 04/04/18 10:07 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
69GTX Offline


Registered: 09/23/15
Posts: 3815
Loc: Connecticut
Originally Posted By: Kaiser
So the UOA are just a good way to know how an oil keeps its specs during its life and not to know the engine health


UOA's are a good way to determine the health of the oil....not necessarily the health of the engine.
_________________________
----------------

2001 Lincoln Cont 4.6L DOHC/ 39K mi / QS HM 5w30 / FUG XG2
1999 Camaro SS M6 /19K /Mobil 1 0w40 /Fram UG /GM MTL-ATF
1969 Ply GTX/RRs

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#4716176 - 04/04/18 12:45 PM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
Linctex Offline


Registered: 12/31/16
Posts: 6148
Loc: Waco, TX
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(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."

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#4769391 - 05/27/18 11:19 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Cujet]
irv Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 1043
Loc: Oshawa, Ont. Canada
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: Kaiser


What do you think about that ?


Incorrect. We know for a fact that extended oil change intervals increase cam chain and balancer chain wear. We also know that UOA wear metals testing shows lower wear metals in extended drain intervals. However, this is not indicative of wear rates. There have been many UOA results showing excellent wear metals on catastrophically failing engines.

Particulates build up and increase real world wear rates. Folks, change your oil and choose your viscosity carefully.


This is the second time I have read this, which is confusing as one would think, with the longer drain intervals, wear metals and the like would also read higher.

If I am understanding this correctly, an OCI with 1000 kms would show a lot higher wear metal readings than an oil that had 10,000 kms on it?
What am I missing or not understanding. It doesn't make sense to me. ???
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#4769395 - 05/27/18 11:31 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: 69GTX]
4WD Offline


Registered: 09/21/10
Posts: 6351
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: Kaiser
So the UOA are just a good way to know how an oil keeps its specs during its life and not to know the engine health


UOA's are a good way to determine the health of the oil....not necessarily the health of the engine.


Have seen some flame out on iron PPM even when engine has an iron block and a formula change took place …
To even get halfway in a steady state mode … would it not take minimum 20k on unit miles to be mostly “worn in” … then 3x with brand A followed by 3x with brand B … same OCI miles and driving habits … but who does that … ?
Then when the oil companies do bench testing they get attacked for “not real world” …
The most subjective materials tend to draw some nasty comments on this site …

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#4769866 - 05/27/18 10:01 PM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: irv]
CR94 Offline


Registered: 03/20/16
Posts: 1120
Loc: Western S.C. since 1996
Originally Posted By: irv
... If I am understanding this correctly, an OCI with 1000 kms would show a lot higher wear metal readings than an oil that had 10,000 kms on it?
What am I missing or not understanding. ...
First, we have to get clear whether we're talking about absolute levels of wear metals, or levels per km (or mile). If, for example, other things being equal, your example oil with 10,000 has 9 times the level of the oil with 1000 km, that would appear to suggest a slightly declining wear rate.
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#4774132 - 06/01/18 07:53 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4561
Loc: NW Ohio
That is not an "Article," it's a brief snippet, not a full summary even. How do I know? I have the full article and it's 14 pages long!

So, is all this commentary and opinion based on merely reading the preview or has anyone actually ponied up and gotten the entire paper? If you are debating this on half the facts, what useful conclusions can actually be reached?

Quote:
We know for a fact that extended oil change intervals increase cam chain and balancer chain wear. We also know that UOA wear metals testing shows lower wear metals in extended drain intervals. However, this is not indicative of wear rates. There have been many UOA results showing excellent wear metals on catastrophically failing engines.


How do "we" know for a fact? Is there some comparable paper to be evaluated illustrating testing down on chain wear and extended oil change intervals? In 2007-01-4133 the focus was on cams and followers, though the test vehicles used Ford 4.6L Triton engines (they started off as new engines), which do have quite an elaborate system of roller chains. If an extended interval was detrimental to chains, you'd have thought that would have shown up in the oil analysis?

The tests prove the theory that friction and wear go down as the oil ages. But like many other things, there is (or could be) a flipside to it not covered in the test. Maybe that's chain wear, so how about some study citations? I would point out that many, if not most, engines these days do not have chains at all (cam belts) so any downsides related specifically to chains would be moot for a significant number of oil-heads.

Finally, how do the significant reductions in ZDDP since that test was done apply to this? This is a ten year old paper. If your vehicle is operating under the conditions under which this 2007 (or earlier) test was done, i.e. similar engines, similar oils, then it would apply more strongly. If you are using current levels of ZDDP, or a more modern engine, remember in that test they were using GF3 or GF4 oils and engines that are no longer in production. We really don't know how strongly it would apply outside of that era. Certainly the basic premise holds as long as ZDDP is in the mix. And then there are the other anti-friction/wear additives they use now. My point here is not to debate wear rates vs extended intervals, but to show that the "flag" you intend to "wave" RE your particular oil crusade or line of inquiry may or may not be current or applicable to YOUR situation or suitable for the broad generalizations that so routinely occur on BITOG.

I am interested in a citation on chain wear, though, since one of my current extended interval engines has a chain, I'd like review them and consider if I need to reevaluate my current OCI. I don't recall ever investigating chain wear specifically.
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Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#4775001 - 06/01/18 10:30 PM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Jim Allen]
Shannow Online   content


Registered: 12/12/02
Posts: 39821
Loc: 'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
That is not an "Article," it's a brief snippet, not a full summary even. How do I know? I have the full article and it's 14 pages long!

So, is all this commentary and opinion based on merely reading the preview or has anyone actually ponied up and gotten the entire paper? If you are debating this on half the facts, what useful conclusions can actually be reached?


:raises hand:

That's why I'm critical of many of the "facts" claimed on BITOG referencing that paper.

The used oils have a more (for want of better description) "broken down", or "activiated" additive package...more reactive than virgin...and form tribofilms quicker.

Most of the oils would have been condemned in a UAO

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#4776985 - 06/04/18 08:53 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
mx5miata Offline


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Ny
For me 1000-1500 miles I change my oil on a new vehicle.

Good synthetic and filter 6 month changes are fine. The vigorous testing that the oil goes through, no one on here will outperform that.. a filter will fail on you before the oil.
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#4777054 - 06/04/18 09:51 AM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Shannow]
Jim Allen Offline


Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 4561
Loc: NW Ohio
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
That is not an "Article," it's a brief snippet, not a full summary even. How do I know? I have the full article and it's 14 pages long!

So, is all this commentary and opinion based on merely reading the preview or has anyone actually ponied up and gotten the entire paper? If you are debating this on half the facts, what useful conclusions can actually be reached?


:raises hand:

That's why I'm critical of many of the "facts" claimed on BITOG referencing that paper.

The used oils have a more (for want of better description) "broken down", or "activiated" additive package...more reactive than virgin...and form tribofilms quicker.

Most of the oils would have been condemned in a UAO


Gee, in looking at the UOA results on the charts in that paper, they looked pretty good to me! Even at 15K! 3.2 TBN.

Anyway, I think it was a valid test. Then. To what degree it applies today or whether it can be used as a universal yardstick can be debated. ZDDP levels have dropped and probably will drop more and that changes the value and applicability of that paper.

I thing the indications are that most oils dumped in regular maintenance are greatly to moderately underutilized, changed before they need to be. I think that is a universal fact but the devils are in the individual details of each vehicle. How to determine individual needs is the big question. I think the "average Joe" could extend his OCI safely in most circumstances but to stretch it out to the far end requires a little more knowledge and testing. And confidence.
_________________________
Jim Allen
Keepin' the Good Old Days of Four Wheeling Alive

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#4777206 - 06/04/18 12:33 PM Re: Oil Change interval & Fresh Oil Break-in period [Re: Kaiser]
mx5miata Offline


Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 312
Loc: Ny
I come here to get knowledge on certain things that leave me stumped.

I don't find myself wanting to know how my oils performing all I am interested in is that my vehicles maintained and is running right.

I have owned many cars new and old and with high mileage never once had an oil analysis performed. horse OT duh
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