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Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? #4715109
04/03/18 11:58 AM
04/03/18 11:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,665
Idaho
SubLGT Offline OP
SubLGT  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,665
Idaho
http://www.moderntiredealer.com/article/729143/the-present-and-future-of-mounting-and-balancing

Quote:
Augmenting off-car balancing with on-car correction will help eliminate NVH issues

Off-car wheel balancers do an excellent job of measuring dynamic unbalance — static and couple, says Dave Scribner, product development manager, CEMB USA/BL Systems Inc.

“Many also now measure tire/wheel assembly eccentricity, or what we will simply define as RFV (Radial Force Vectoring) to help eliminate vibration.

“We must ensure the tire and wheel assembly is balanced and round when rolling; and ultimately this is when it’s on the vehicle’s hub because this is where it rolls against the pavement.”

On-car balancing solves many issues that off-car balancing cannot address, he says. “Because of gravity, the assembly centerline changes from the balancer to the vehicle hub on virtually all wheels with hub bores and lug nuts and studs securing the wheel to the vehicle. “The small clearances can make a big difference in radial force variation ride quality.”

Scribner says use a wheel balancer that measures RFV if you want to solve vibration on sensitive vehicles. “Vehicle and tire manufacturers have known for decades that virtually every vehicle can benefit from using hub-bore indexing to assist in canceling the remaining eccentricity and/or static imbalance in the assembly during vehicle mounting.

“Index the high point of RFV at the balancer and place it on the vehicle at TDC (Top Dead Center) before torqueing the lug nuts. Do it on everything. It will save time, reduce the need to match mount and always provide better quality ride.”

Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4715134
04/03/18 12:24 PM
04/03/18 12:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 468
Jupiter, FL
thescreensavers Offline
thescreensavers  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 468
Jupiter, FL
Correct me if I am wrong but by balancing wheels/tires arent you removing the "high point"

I have heard of hub centric vs lug centric balancing though

Last edited by thescreensavers; 04/03/18 12:25 PM.

2017 Camaro SS 1LE (Motul 8100 X-clean 5W40)
1997 Jeep XJ 4x4 (15W40 HDEO Maxlife)
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4715186
04/03/18 01:18 PM
04/03/18 01:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,372
America's Dairyland
LotI Offline
LotI  Offline
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,372
America's Dairyland
The article references some research that shows when installing the wheel & tire on the vehicle there is a couple thousandths of droop that happens. It can reduce the RFV a few pounds.

Balancing a tire does nothing to fix roundness...you can balance something out of round. Shops without a RoadForce balancer do it every day and face the comebacks.


03 Honda Interceptor
11 Kawasaki KLR 650
12 Ford E450
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Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4715209
04/03/18 01:59 PM
04/03/18 01:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,412
Santa Barbara, CA
bdcardinal Offline
bdcardinal  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 11,412
Santa Barbara, CA
Probably just OCD on my part but when I put the wheels back on my Mustang I mount the lug hole that aligns with the valve stem to the one stud on each corner with a paint marking. That stud also gets the wheel lock.


2014 Ford Mustang GT Track Pack
1995 Ford Mustang GT

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Opinions expressed are my own.
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4715265
04/03/18 02:50 PM
04/03/18 02:50 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 147
Va.
Piston_slap Offline
Piston_slap  Offline
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 147
Va.
During balancing I have the tire marked for where the weights will be and then break the tire off the bead. I have them rotate the tire to align the lighter of the two weights to index with the tire air valve. We re-inflate, apply the weights and recheck the balance. Sometimes this requires 2 or 3 attempts to get it "dead on". This counter acts the Radial Vectoring Force by 1 magnitude. I use stock lug nuts but the whole group of 20 nuts have been weighed and those that deviate beyond 5% are culled and replaced with good replacements. High weight nuts can be machined down on the exterior ring face to lighten.

Last edited by Piston_slap; 04/03/18 02:51 PM.

1994 Ford Econoline w/302 & 4R70W
Valvoline 10W-40, Motorcraft FL1
Isotope U235
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: Piston_slap] #4715813
04/04/18 07:50 AM
04/04/18 07:50 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,442
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,442
Somewhere in the US
Oh Boy! Lots to comment on:

The OP quoted an article about the future of balance machines and tire mounters. They interviewed 5 balance machine manufacturer's reps - and they all read like an ad for their current product. These were sales guys, not technical folks - and it showed. There were a number of errors and falsehoods. So let me start by filling in the blanks for those folks who are new to the subject.

There are 2 things that can cause a wheel end vibration: Balance and - oh, let's call it runout.

We are all familiar with static and dynamic balancing - but runout is a different kettle of fish and has to be treated separately.

No, runout is NOT affected by balancing a tire and wheel assembly. You can have a perfectly balanced assembly and still have a vibration caused by the runout. You can also have a perfectly round assembly that is out of balance. In fact, tire manufacturers measure it at low speeds - speeds where balancing isn't an issue.

Not only can the wheel be out of round, but the tire can be too - except with a tire there is the additional structural stiffness variation and when combined with runout, we call it Uniformity. We tire engineers use the term RFV (Radial Force Variation) as another way of expressing uniformity. Why the CEMB rep used the word "Vector" is a bit of a mystery.

Every vehicle has a certain sensitivity to out of balance and uniformity. Some are very sensitive, some very insensitive, most are in-between.

My experience says that vehicle sensitivity is pretty much always lower than the 1/4 oz. (5 gram) balance weight increment - meaning there is no need to balance an assembly more accurately than that. Add the fact the roads are affected by freezing and thawing and heave during the winter, makes the small amount of potential vibration improvement a moot point. It can't be felt because of all the road input.

Vehicle suspensions are - in engineering terms - Spring/Mass/Damper systems (the damper being the shock absorber). SMD systems have a resonant frequency where the vibration isn't damped out effectively. For most vehicles this is in the 50 mph to 70 mph range. We also refer to this as the wheel hop frequency. Outside that speed range, the SMD system does what it is supposed to do - damp out the vibration.

In the old days, other rotating components such a brake rotors and wheel hubs were problematic - and an on-car balancers could correct some of that. Even during that time, on-car balancers were somewhat hard to find.

But nowadays the components are much better and the need for an on-car balancer is virtually nil.

- EXCEPT -

We are seeing brake rotors and the like coming from .... ah .... let's call them sources that new to the game and as yet aren't quite up to speed - and because they are inexpensive, many parts store carry them. Anything on a new car or from an OEM source will meet the OEM's quality level, but the aftermarket is a free-for-all!

OK, now to the questions:

Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
Correct me if I am wrong but by balancing wheels/tires arent you removing the "high point". .......


No. You are thinking about "heavy spot" Balancing does not affect runout. It has to be dealt with separately.

Originally Posted By: Piston_slap
During balancing I have the tire marked for where the weights will be and then break the tire off the bead. I have them rotate the tire to align the lighter of the two weights to index with the tire air valve. We re-inflate, apply the weights and recheck the balance. Sometimes this requires 2 or 3 attempts to get it "dead on". This counter acts the Radial Vectoring Force by 1 magnitude. ......


Ah ..... Mmmmm ..... Not exactly.

The RFV (Radial Force Variation) is unaffected by balance - and shifting the tire around relative to the wheel to reduce the amount of balance weights only reduces the amount of weight. It's largely a time wasting activity because once the weights are applied, the assembly is balanced and there is no residual force due to balance - EXCEPT that the wheel has some amount of runout and rotating the tire relative to the wheel does change the amount of RFV, but since the indexing process isn't trying to reduce that (it isn't even measuring that!), the result is a random RFV - it could be large, it could be small.

- BUT -

There is a company that makes a machine that measures a form of RFV: The Hunter RoadForce machines. They aren't prefect, but they are a significant help in trying to diagnose wheel end vibrations.


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4716799
04/05/18 04:05 AM
04/05/18 04:05 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,815
New Zealand
Silk Offline
Silk  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,815
New Zealand
Wheels on a Volvo go back on in the same place, so simple to do, but I don't see any other cars that do it.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: Silk] #4716892
04/05/18 07:30 AM
04/05/18 07:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,442
Somewhere in the US
CapriRacer Offline
CapriRacer  Offline
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,442
Somewhere in the US
Originally Posted By: Silk
Wheels on a Volvo go back on in the same place, so simple to do, but I don't see any other cars that do it.


Are you saying there is something peculiar about Volvo's that the wheels fit on in only one orientation?


CapriRacer

Visit my web site: www.BarrysTireTech.com
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: SubLGT] #4717895
04/06/18 04:42 AM
04/06/18 04:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,815
New Zealand
Silk Offline
Silk  Offline
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,815
New Zealand
Yes, like on an early Fiat (or Lada) the bolt that holds the rotor on has a pin, there is only one location on the wheel that will accept the length of the pin. So the wheel goes on in the same location.


1987 BMW R65 - Penrite V Twin 20/50
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: Tire/Wheel to Hub Indexing? [Re: LotI] #4720351
04/08/18 09:30 AM
04/08/18 09:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,665
Idaho
SubLGT Offline OP
SubLGT  Offline OP
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,665
Idaho
Originally Posted By: LotI
The article references some research that shows when installing the wheel & tire on the vehicle there is a couple thousandths of droop that happens. It can reduce the RFV a few pounds....


Wasn't the adoption of "hub centric" wheels by the automotive industry supposed to eliminate the off-centering influence of gravity when mounting the wheel onto the hub? Looks like the answer is "no". It probably helps reduce it, but does not totally reduce it to zero influence.

Last edited by SubLGT; 04/08/18 09:32 AM.

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