OCI in US vs. Europe

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I read that in Europe the recommended OCIs are almost twice as US.
Although US OCIs seems to be increasing in recent years.
I have also read the cars may be driven harder in Europe ... not sure about that since I read it on the internet. lol

is there any European vs. US stats showing the life of the cars (same engine) and how long they are lasting?
Also just curious about oil ... I always read about German this or that or European oil version are better ...
is that a factor? are the European oil that much better or it is another marketing thing?

Longer OCIs in Europe, plus cars are driven harder ... so they must not as long or maybe marketing is US is better promoting shorter OCI.
more than anything I am interested about European oil, are they any better?
 
One consideration might be that equivalent motor oils cost a good bit more than twice the US price in the EU and they don't get the clearances and MIRs that allow us to buy PP Euro 0W-40 for three bucks a jug after MIR.
Cost drives maintenance and the cost of an oil change in the EU is sufficiently high to mandate drain intervals well beyond what we see recommended here.
When we see a 10K recommended drain interval here, we think it's just a matter of the maker trying to make routine maintenance costs look lower. The same is true of the much longer drain intervals commonly recommended in the European market.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
One consideration might be that equivalent motor oils cost a good bit more than twice the US price in the EU and they don't get the clearances and MIRs that allow us to buy PP Euro 0W-40 for three bucks a jug after MIR.


I don't think manufacturers give longer service intervals because the oil costs too much...but the consumer might stretch it for that reason. Here we do 15,000km for late model vehicles...but the consumer will push it beyond that. I saw one last week 50,000km over it's service mileage....and I didn't change the oil.
 
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
I’d say the nearly double OCI is more likely tied to the fact that the viscosity is nearly double, and has more TBN and stouter add packs.

Yep, compare a Euro A3/B4 oil to an ILSAC GF-5 oil, and the Euro oil most likely gives you: more TBN, more ZDDP, more SAPS, higher viscosity and higher HTHS. The Euro oil is also required to have a lower Noack volitility (over SN & GF-5) plus the Euro oil must pass a stay-in-grade shear stability test that SN oils are not subjected to.

Then the Euro OEMs like BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40 etc. These step it up another notch again. For example to be MB 229.5 the Noack must be 10% or less, that forces high quality base stock to be used. For SN the Noack only has to be 15% or less, and for Dexos or A3 or C3 (Euro) it needs to be 13% or less. You will never find a Dino MB 229.5 oil.

Having said all that, I agree with SubieRubyRoo, in that most of this is as a reserve for longer (sometimes double) OCI that are more typical in Europe. But I think North American oils do fine with North American oil change intervals (OCI).

For myself in Australia, it's very easy and sometimes relatively cheap, to find oils that are both American API rated and European ACEA rated, so this is what I buy. Infact there is not one oil in my stash that doesn't carry both API & ACEA specs.

I think the most important thing is to match the oil to your car and climate and driving style and OCI. Running a A3/B4 longlife oil for 3k miles doesn't help your engine any more than an ILSAC oil over the same distance. However if I'm going 15k miles then I'll pick an A3/B4 oil or one of your M1 EP / AP oils (which we don't get here).
 
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
I’d say the nearly double OCI is more likely tied to the fact that the viscosity is nearly double, and has more TBN and stouter add packs.

Yep, compare a Euro A3/B4 oil to an ILSAC GF-5 oil, and the Euro oil most likely gives you: more TBN, more ZDDP, more SAPS, higher viscosity and higher HTHS. The Euro oil is also required to have a lower Noack volitility (over SN & GF-5) plus the Euro oil must pass a stay-in-grade shear stability test that SN oils are not subjected to.

Then the Euro OEMs like BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40 etc. These step it up another notch again. For example to be MB 229.5 the Noack must be 10% or less, that forces high quality base stock to be used. For SN the Noack only has to be 15% or less, and for Dexos or A3 or C3 (Euro) it needs to be 13% or less. You will never find a Dino MB 229.5 oil.

Having said all that, I agree with SubieRubyRoo, in that most of this is as a reserve for longer (sometimes double) OCI that are more typical in Europe. But I think North American oils do fine with North American oil change intervals (OCI).

For myself in Australia, it's very easy and sometimes relatively cheap, to find oils that are both American API rated and European ACEA rated, so this is what I buy. Infact there is not one oil in my stash that doesn't carry both API & ACEA specs.

I think the most important thing is to match the oil to your car and climate and driving style and OCI. Running a A3/B4 longlife oil for 3k miles doesn't help your engine any more than an ILSAC oil over the same distance. However if I'm going 15k miles then I'll pick an A3/B4 oil or one of your M1 EP / AP oils (which we don't get here).


I know a lot of people don't use straight weight oils anymore but i found it works quite well in my situation. I use monograde oil for the benefit of more zddp and a higher base number and for the fact it is stable in high heat conditions. In my part of the world the climate in the summer ranges from 85-110 *F with 100% humidity.
Here is a VOA of the Chevron delo 400 CF/SL i use in my truck.
chromium-0
nickel-0
aluminum-3
copper-0
lead-0
tin-0
cadmium-0
silver-0
vanadium-0
silicon-4
sodium-2
potassium-2
titanium-0
moly-103
antimony-1
mang-0
lithium-0
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
barium-0
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1
Oxidation-8
Nitration-4
 
Originally Posted By: jakewells
I use a oil with a tbn of 11.5 but i operate under severe conditions so extended oil changes would not be wise for me.

error i meant 10.5 today is not my DAY!
 
Originally Posted By: jakewells
I use a oil with a tbn of 11.5 but i operate under severe conditions so extended oil changes would not be wise for me.


What do you define as "severe"?

I don't particularly want to pick on you, but you used the term. Reason I ask is because oil manufacturers and quick lube places beat it into folks forever that everyone drives severe service, and that 3/3000 is the only way to go. It sells oil...People then often imagine their way into severe operations regardless of the reality.

-------------

Europe is a good example to compare to. First, not everyone/ every car gets high HTHS A3/B4 oil. Cars take A1 or A5 oils too.

Even the premise of harder use or longer runs at speed isn't necessarily correct.

Use the UK as an example. Their highest speed limits are 70 MPH, per here:
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

And the UK is roughly the size of Oregon, Wyoming or Michigan. Not huge, so not long distance high speed driving.

Even Germany... Ever drive the Autobahn? Yes, there's no limit, but routinely at interchanges the speed limit appears and drops speed rapidly. So there's something to be said about big brakes and high acceleration out of the speed zone, but with 82M people in a country that is 85% the size of CA, the distances arent that far/long.

Just something to think about regarding oils and use profiles.
 
Another thing worth noting is that an API SN/CF and ILSAC GF-5 oil is never really expected to see service in a diesel engine, even a light duty diesel, regardless of that ancient CF rating.

While many A3/B4 (without DPF), C3 (with DPF) and maybe even A5/B5 (lower HTHS) Euro oil do see service in diesel engines. This realistic extra requirement of being both a gas/petrol engine oil and a light duty diesel engine oil means the oil needs to have extra development requirements (such as shear stability) that can benefit both engine types.
 
There are lots of 'technical' reasons why OCIs might be higher in Europe than in the US. Most of them are listed in the comments above. However, true as these factors may be, none of them properly accounts for the magnitude of the differences that exist.

I have long believed that the overriding differences in US & Europe OCI stem simply from 'habit' and an unwillingness of interested parties in the US to challenge a form of behavior that is so beneficial to themselves.

The '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule was deeply embedded in US automotive folklore in a way it never was in Europe. I liken the '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule to that other rule that dictates you should spend a month's salary on an engagement ring. The 'months salary' rule was dreamt up & heavily promoted by a executive at De Beers as a mechanism to simulate demand for South African diamonds and was always utterly self-serving; yet it's something that couples worldwide still adhere to.

The '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule was massively beneficial to the oil companies & the AddCo's because it drives demand. Because the OEMs are in many respects totally dependent on the support they get from the former companies, they have always been lethargic in advocating OCI change. The old US rule is officially 'dead' now but if you read BITOG regularly, you realise it's still unofficially alive and kicking and applied by individuals as 'best practice'. I also note that OEMs in the US, faced with any sort of oil issue, are all too ready to declare something to be 'severe service' and drop the recommended OCI to say 5k. This just doesn't happen in Europe.

About 10 years ago, I remember discussing OCIs with Total's OEM Liason guy. We were discussing '2 years or every 18,000 miles' OCIs which were the norm for several 'mile-muncher' cars. Something he said surprised me. He said that OEMs like Renault & PSA knew full well that such OCIs were at the very limit of what oils could achieve but importantly, most cars would have their oils changed BEFORE they hit 18k. He also said that the OEMs fully expected that a small number of engines would fail and need to replaced under warranty but that the calculated cost of these replacements was small relative to the perceived marketing benefits of having a long OCI, especially when selling into the all important fleet markets.

In answer to the OP's question, I do not think cars last any longer in Europe than they do in the US. I remember reading an industry article a while back that said the average age of the UK vehicle parc was a mere SEVEN YEARS!! This suggests that cars are junked long before their mechanical life is up. Contrast this with the US where cars are kept on the road sometimes for decades.
 
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Fortunately, the only things that you'll realistically see a CF on these days in North America are a few A3/B4 lubricants, the occasional boutique (which, in fairness will have appropriate HTHS and more than enough in the way of additives), and perhaps some monogrades. There aren't any 5w-30 or 10w-30 PCMOs that will claim that spec any longer that I've seen, though I do have a couple dated examples out in the garage.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but back in the day when that was the current diesel spec, my dad didn't bother with that nonsense with his diesel trucks or farm equipment. They got an appropriate HDEO, branded Esso XD-3 or Shell Rotella, and not a PCMO with some nominal CF.
wink.gif
 
I'm sure that it's in the pile library somewhere...Ford were wanting to build a disposable car in the 60s/70s, and were working with Castrol at the time.

Question was could Castrol come up with an engine oil that could be "lifetime fill" for a car that was supposed to last 25,000 miles.

Castrol replied that they already made that oil...it would go 25,000 miles, provided that they were not planning on going any more OCIs.

There's been more than enough Crazy A Bonkers extreme oil changes due to either negligence or intent that nearly everything we do is in the fat part of the bell curve.

OEMs stretching the curve to allow a few more failures is reasonable, either in service interval, CAFE, or both.

When my brother was operating a service business, they chose Mitsubishi diesel vehicles. 15,000km on Dino, versus 5,000 on the Toyotas at the time...less time in the shop, more time on the road, reduced operating costs, and the vehicle was in warranty the moajority of the time it was owned...and they bought them in gunmetal grey, with steps and bullbar to stand out from the "white hilux" come auction time.
 
Too many different factors to take into consideration with this one, as has been discussed before and relatively in-depth in this post.

For starters, although the U.S. now has its fair share of these engines, Europe has traditionally had smaller, higher revving engines that are under more stress than your average American V8 that idles along at highway speeds - quite different than a 1.4L inline 4 screaming at 4,500 rpm in 6th gear on a German Autobahn. Drain intervals are another factor, given the cost of motor oil in Europe vs. the United States. In the modern era, with direct injector and forced induction we're now commonly seeing across the range of nearly all manufacturers, engine oil under a lot more stress. Then of course there are fuel quality differences.

Unlike in the API, the ACEA is made up of automakers that define far more than just the chemical composition of the oil with a one size fits all approach. Given the use of diesel engines in passenger vehicles in Europe, you'll often see motor oil is dual rated - not quite common in the U.S. unless you're looking specifically at HDEO. Plus, the ACEA has a range of specifications for different applications - e.g. A3/B4, A5/B5 or C3 - most often used as a baseline for manufacturer specific specifications such as BMW LongLife-04, etc. Although both bodies test oils with pretty much the same principles, such as cam wear, sludge, oxidation, varnish, etc., they also use vastly different engines as test mules.

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it, there's also the emissions side of things. With the API having a greater focus on extending the life of catalytic converters, the ACEA also has to take into account diesel particulate filters, which is more than just limiting sulfur and phosphorus. Since fuel quality is also a major concern, the API has to take into account ethanol, which the ACEA does not.

Although not exactly comparing apples to oranges, there are way too many factors to take into consideration here for the most part to come up with a single answer.
 
People mistakenly think all of Europe has autobahns or something and everybody drives 200 Kmh every day ( 120mph ).
That is NOT TRUE!!

But anyway, probably the reasons why OCI's tend to be longer in Europe is :
1 Higher viscosity oils, no CAFE.
2 Most oils are not "energy conserving" even most cheaper name brand Mineral oils are A3/B4 rated.
3 Cleaners fuels with less sulphur.
4 And a a big one is, pretty much nobody in Europe changes oil every 3000 miles ( 5000 Km ), because the myth of the 3000 mile / 3 month oil change was never popular in Europe.
5 Motor oils, like most things auto-related are significantly more expensive in Europe ( 6$ / quart in Europe is super cheap, and under that is incredibly rare or you're buying some brand you've never heard of with suspicious specs )
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
10K has been my normal OCi for 40 years. Euro was probably behind me in 1978.

Yes you probably were leading the wayTig1, with 10K miles OCI on M1 20grade.

But Europe has moved on with 2 year OCI and with these new engines in either light duty turbo diesel or turbo gas direct injection which are a lot more stressful on oil than the low revving engines of yesterday.

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
About 10 years ago, I remember discussing OCIs with Total's OEM Liason guy. We were discussing '2 years or every 18,000 miles' OCIs which were the norm for several 'mile-muncher' cars.


For a little 4-cylinder turbo diesel, a Euro C3 oil is the way to go - which is almost equivalent to a Dexos2 (not D1G2) oil. Dexos 2 is what GM-Australia say to use in the little 1.4 L Turbo gas Cruze, and I hear what GM-USA now spec in the new Corvette.

That is where I see things meeting up, with Euro C3 and GM Dexos2 oil being almost the same thing. Many smaller mechanics shops in Australia now only carry Dexos2, which they put in every GM car and truck with what looks like no warranty issues from GM Australia.

Ref:
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4709522/
 
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Originally Posted By: SR5
That is where I see things meeting up, with Euro C3 and GM Dexos2 oil being almost the same thing. Many smaller mechanics shops in Australia now only carry Dexos2, which they put in every GM car and truck with what looks like no warranty issues from GM Australia.

Coincidentally, the only two dexos2 oils I've ever seen on our shelves have also carried ACEA C3.
 
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