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OCI in US vs. Europe #4713451
04/01/18 04:55 PM
04/01/18 04:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 498
WA
OilUzer Online content OP
OilUzer  Online Content OP
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 498
WA
I read that in Europe the recommended OCIs are almost twice as US.
Although US OCIs seems to be increasing in recent years.
I have also read the cars may be driven harder in Europe ... not sure about that since I read it on the internet. lol

is there any European vs. US stats showing the life of the cars (same engine) and how long they are lasting?
Also just curious about oil ... I always read about German this or that or European oil version are better ...
is that a factor? are the European oil that much better or it is another marketing thing?

Longer OCIs in Europe, plus cars are driven harder ... so they must not as long or maybe marketing is US is better promoting shorter OCI.
more than anything I am interested about European oil, are they any better?

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713459
04/01/18 05:05 PM
04/01/18 05:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 744
texas
danez_yoda Offline
danez_yoda  Offline
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 744
texas
In america 100 years is a long time, in europe 100miles is a long way.

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713475
04/01/18 05:26 PM
04/01/18 05:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
fdcg27 Offline
fdcg27  Offline
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 16,183
OH
One consideration might be that equivalent motor oils cost a good bit more than twice the US price in the EU and they don't get the clearances and MIRs that allow us to buy PP Euro 0W-40 for three bucks a jug after MIR.
Cost drives maintenance and the cost of an oil change in the EU is sufficiently high to mandate drain intervals well beyond what we see recommended here.
When we see a 10K recommended drain interval here, we think it's just a matter of the maker trying to make routine maintenance costs look lower. The same is true of the much longer drain intervals commonly recommended in the European market.


18 Accord Hybrid FF
17 Forester 18K VME 0W-20
12 Accord LX 96K SSO 0W-20
09 Forester 95K M1HM 10W-30
01 Focus ZX3 118K PP 5W-20
96 Accord LX 104K T5 10W-30
95 318i
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713487
04/01/18 05:47 PM
04/01/18 05:47 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,832
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline
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Posts: 1,832
The land of USA-made Subies!
Id say the nearly double OCI is more likely tied to the fact that the viscosity is nearly double, and has more TBN and stouter add packs.

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713509
04/01/18 06:12 PM
04/01/18 06:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
jakewells Offline
jakewells  Offline
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
I use a oil with a tbn of 11.5 but i operate under severe conditions so extended oil changes would not be wise for me.


1994 Ford F150 302 4R70
Chevron Delo SAE 30 CF/SL Fram XG8A

1978 Chevy Nova 250 I6 Borg Warner T5
Rotella 10W40 Fram XG5

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: fdcg27] #4713520
04/01/18 06:24 PM
04/01/18 06:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,895
New Zealand
Silk Online content
Silk  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,895
New Zealand
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
One consideration might be that equivalent motor oils cost a good bit more than twice the US price in the EU and they don't get the clearances and MIRs that allow us to buy PP Euro 0W-40 for three bucks a jug after MIR.


I don't think manufacturers give longer service intervals because the oil costs too much...but the consumer might stretch it for that reason. Here we do 15,000km for late model vehicles...but the consumer will push it beyond that. I saw one last week 50,000km over it's service mileage....and I didn't change the oil.


1987 BMW R65 - Aegis SAE30
2005 Nissan Expert - Gulf Western 10W-40
1996 Volvo T5 - Penrite HPR15 - 15W-60. Ryco syntec filter.
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: SubieRubyRoo] #4713526
04/01/18 06:31 PM
04/01/18 06:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
SR5 Online content
SR5  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Id say the nearly double OCI is more likely tied to the fact that the viscosity is nearly double, and has more TBN and stouter add packs.

Yep, compare a Euro A3/B4 oil to an ILSAC GF-5 oil, and the Euro oil most likely gives you: more TBN, more ZDDP, more SAPS, higher viscosity and higher HTHS. The Euro oil is also required to have a lower Noack volitility (over SN & GF-5) plus the Euro oil must pass a stay-in-grade shear stability test that SN oils are not subjected to.

Then the Euro OEMs like BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40 etc. These step it up another notch again. For example to be MB 229.5 the Noack must be 10% or less, that forces high quality base stock to be used. For SN the Noack only has to be 15% or less, and for Dexos or A3 or C3 (Euro) it needs to be 13% or less. You will never find a Dino MB 229.5 oil.

Having said all that, I agree with SubieRubyRoo, in that most of this is as a reserve for longer (sometimes double) OCI that are more typical in Europe. But I think North American oils do fine with North American oil change intervals (OCI).

For myself in Australia, it's very easy and sometimes relatively cheap, to find oils that are both American API rated and European ACEA rated, so this is what I buy. Infact there is not one oil in my stash that doesn't carry both API & ACEA specs.

I think the most important thing is to match the oil to your car and climate and driving style and OCI. Running a A3/B4 longlife oil for 3k miles doesn't help your engine any more than an ILSAC oil over the same distance. However if I'm going 15k miles then I'll pick an A3/B4 oil or one of your M1 EP / AP oils (which we don't get here).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: SR5] #4713565
04/01/18 07:09 PM
04/01/18 07:09 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
jakewells Offline
jakewells  Offline
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: SubieRubyRoo
Id say the nearly double OCI is more likely tied to the fact that the viscosity is nearly double, and has more TBN and stouter add packs.

Yep, compare a Euro A3/B4 oil to an ILSAC GF-5 oil, and the Euro oil most likely gives you: more TBN, more ZDDP, more SAPS, higher viscosity and higher HTHS. The Euro oil is also required to have a lower Noack volitility (over SN & GF-5) plus the Euro oil must pass a stay-in-grade shear stability test that SN oils are not subjected to.

Then the Euro OEMs like BMW LL-01, MB 229.5, Porsche A40 etc. These step it up another notch again. For example to be MB 229.5 the Noack must be 10% or less, that forces high quality base stock to be used. For SN the Noack only has to be 15% or less, and for Dexos or A3 or C3 (Euro) it needs to be 13% or less. You will never find a Dino MB 229.5 oil.

Having said all that, I agree with SubieRubyRoo, in that most of this is as a reserve for longer (sometimes double) OCI that are more typical in Europe. But I think North American oils do fine with North American oil change intervals (OCI).

For myself in Australia, it's very easy and sometimes relatively cheap, to find oils that are both American API rated and European ACEA rated, so this is what I buy. Infact there is not one oil in my stash that doesn't carry both API & ACEA specs.

I think the most important thing is to match the oil to your car and climate and driving style and OCI. Running a A3/B4 longlife oil for 3k miles doesn't help your engine any more than an ILSAC oil over the same distance. However if I'm going 15k miles then I'll pick an A3/B4 oil or one of your M1 EP / AP oils (which we don't get here).


I know a lot of people don't use straight weight oils anymore but i found it works quite well in my situation. I use monograde oil for the benefit of more zddp and a higher base number and for the fact it is stable in high heat conditions. In my part of the world the climate in the summer ranges from 85-110 *F with 100% humidity.
Here is a VOA of the Chevron delo 400 CF/SL i use in my truck.
chromium-0
nickel-0
aluminum-3
copper-0
lead-0
tin-0
cadmium-0
silver-0
vanadium-0
silicon-4
sodium-2
potassium-2
titanium-0
moly-103
antimony-1
mang-0
lithium-0
boron-146
magnesium-13
calcium-3297
barium-0
phos-1379
zinc-1647
Vis-11.5
TBN-10.1
Oxidation-8
Nitration-4


1994 Ford F150 302 4R70
Chevron Delo SAE 30 CF/SL Fram XG8A

1978 Chevy Nova 250 I6 Borg Warner T5
Rotella 10W40 Fram XG5

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: jakewells] #4713566
04/01/18 07:10 PM
04/01/18 07:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
jakewells Offline
jakewells  Offline
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 562
Cave City KY
Originally Posted By: jakewells
I use a oil with a tbn of 11.5 but i operate under severe conditions so extended oil changes would not be wise for me.

error i meant 10.5 today is not my DAY!


1994 Ford F150 302 4R70
Chevron Delo SAE 30 CF/SL Fram XG8A

1978 Chevy Nova 250 I6 Borg Warner T5
Rotella 10W40 Fram XG5

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: jakewells] #4713662
04/01/18 09:15 PM
04/01/18 09:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,295
New Jersey
JHZR2 Offline
JHZR2  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 42,295
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: jakewells
I use a oil with a tbn of 11.5 but i operate under severe conditions so extended oil changes would not be wise for me.


What do you define as "severe"?

I don't particularly want to pick on you, but you used the term. Reason I ask is because oil manufacturers and quick lube places beat it into folks forever that everyone drives severe service, and that 3/3000 is the only way to go. It sells oil...People then often imagine their way into severe operations regardless of the reality.

-------------

Europe is a good example to compare to. First, not everyone/ every car gets high HTHS A3/B4 oil. Cars take A1 or A5 oils too.

Even the premise of harder use or longer runs at speed isn't necessarily correct.

Use the UK as an example. Their highest speed limits are 70 MPH, per here:
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

And the UK is roughly the size of Oregon, Wyoming or Michigan. Not huge, so not long distance high speed driving.

Even Germany... Ever drive the Autobahn? Yes, there's no limit, but routinely at interchanges the speed limit appears and drops speed rapidly. So there's something to be said about big brakes and high acceleration out of the speed zone, but with 82M people in a country that is 85% the size of CA, the distances arent that far/long.

Just something to think about regarding oils and use profiles.

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713685
04/01/18 09:53 PM
04/01/18 09:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
SR5 Online content
SR5  Online Content
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 4,655
Down Under
Another thing worth noting is that an API SN/CF and ILSAC GF-5 oil is never really expected to see service in a diesel engine, even a light duty diesel, regardless of that ancient CF rating.

While many A3/B4 (without DPF), C3 (with DPF) and maybe even A5/B5 (lower HTHS) Euro oil do see service in diesel engines. This realistic extra requirement of being both a gas/petrol engine oil and a light duty diesel engine oil means the oil needs to have extra development requirements (such as shear stability) that can benefit both engine types.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Castrol GTX Ultraclean 15W40 A3/B3 + Wesfil-Cooper Z154
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713755
04/02/18 01:15 AM
04/02/18 01:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,224
Europe
There are lots of 'technical' reasons why OCIs might be higher in Europe than in the US. Most of them are listed in the comments above. However, true as these factors may be, none of them properly accounts for the magnitude of the differences that exist.

I have long believed that the overriding differences in US & Europe OCI stem simply from 'habit' and an unwillingness of interested parties in the US to challenge a form of behavior that is so beneficial to themselves.

The '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule was deeply embedded in US automotive folklore in a way it never was in Europe. I liken the '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule to that other rule that dictates you should spend a month's salary on an engagement ring. The 'months salary' rule was dreamt up & heavily promoted by a executive at De Beers as a mechanism to simulate demand for South African diamonds and was always utterly self-serving; yet it's something that couples worldwide still adhere to.

The '3000 miles or every 3 months' rule was massively beneficial to the oil companies & the AddCo's because it drives demand. Because the OEMs are in many respects totally dependent on the support they get from the former companies, they have always been lethargic in advocating OCI change. The old US rule is officially 'dead' now but if you read BITOG regularly, you realise it's still unofficially alive and kicking and applied by individuals as 'best practice'. I also note that OEMs in the US, faced with any sort of oil issue, are all too ready to declare something to be 'severe service' and drop the recommended OCI to say 5k. This just doesn't happen in Europe.

About 10 years ago, I remember discussing OCIs with Total's OEM Liason guy. We were discussing '2 years or every 18,000 miles' OCIs which were the norm for several 'mile-muncher' cars. Something he said surprised me. He said that OEMs like Renault & PSA knew full well that such OCIs were at the very limit of what oils could achieve but importantly, most cars would have their oils changed BEFORE they hit 18k. He also said that the OEMs fully expected that a small number of engines would fail and need to replaced under warranty but that the calculated cost of these replacements was small relative to the perceived marketing benefits of having a long OCI, especially when selling into the all important fleet markets.

In answer to the OP's question, I do not think cars last any longer in Europe than they do in the US. I remember reading an industry article a while back that said the average age of the UK vehicle parc was a mere SEVEN YEARS!! This suggests that cars are junked long before their mechanical life is up. Contrast this with the US where cars are kept on the road sometimes for decades.




Last edited by SonofJoe; 04/02/18 01:21 AM.
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: SR5] #4713757
04/02/18 01:20 AM
04/02/18 01:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,206
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Garak Offline
Garak  Offline
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 26,206
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Fortunately, the only things that you'll realistically see a CF on these days in North America are a few A3/B4 lubricants, the occasional boutique (which, in fairness will have appropriate HTHS and more than enough in the way of additives), and perhaps some monogrades. There aren't any 5w-30 or 10w-30 PCMOs that will claim that spec any longer that I've seen, though I do have a couple dated examples out in the garage.

I believe I've mentioned this before, but back in the day when that was the current diesel spec, my dad didn't bother with that nonsense with his diesel trucks or farm equipment. They got an appropriate HDEO, branded Esso XD-3 or Shell Rotella, and not a PCMO with some nominal CF. wink


Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 - Shell ROTELLA T6 Multi-Vehicle 5w-30, NAPA Gold 7356
1984 F-150 4.9L - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515
Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713761
04/02/18 01:28 AM
04/02/18 01:28 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,536
'Stralia
Shannow Online content
Shannow  Online Content
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,536
'Stralia
I'm sure that it's in the pile library somewhere...Ford were wanting to build a disposable car in the 60s/70s, and were working with Castrol at the time.

Question was could Castrol come up with an engine oil that could be "lifetime fill" for a car that was supposed to last 25,000 miles.

Castrol replied that they already made that oil...it would go 25,000 miles, provided that they were not planning on going any more OCIs.

There's been more than enough Crazy A Bonkers extreme oil changes due to either negligence or intent that nearly everything we do is in the fat part of the bell curve.

OEMs stretching the curve to allow a few more failures is reasonable, either in service interval, CAFE, or both.

When my brother was operating a service business, they chose Mitsubishi diesel vehicles. 15,000km on Dino, versus 5,000 on the Toyotas at the time...less time in the shop, more time on the road, reduced operating costs, and the vehicle was in warranty the moajority of the time it was owned...and they bought them in gunmetal grey, with steps and bullbar to stand out from the "white hilux" come auction time.

Re: OCI in US vs. Europe [Re: OilUzer] #4713769
04/02/18 03:43 AM
04/02/18 03:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,174
Kuwait
Falcon_LS Offline
Falcon_LS  Offline
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Posts: 4,174
Kuwait
Too many different factors to take into consideration with this one, as has been discussed before and relatively in-depth in this post.

For starters, although the U.S. now has its fair share of these engines, Europe has traditionally had smaller, higher revving engines that are under more stress than your average American V8 that idles along at highway speeds - quite different than a 1.4L inline 4 screaming at 4,500 rpm in 6th gear on a German Autobahn. Drain intervals are another factor, given the cost of motor oil in Europe vs. the United States. In the modern era, with direct injector and forced induction we're now commonly seeing across the range of nearly all manufacturers, engine oil under a lot more stress. Then of course there are fuel quality differences.

Unlike in the API, the ACEA is made up of automakers that define far more than just the chemical composition of the oil with a one size fits all approach. Given the use of diesel engines in passenger vehicles in Europe, you'll often see motor oil is dual rated - not quite common in the U.S. unless you're looking specifically at HDEO. Plus, the ACEA has a range of specifications for different applications - e.g. A3/B4, A5/B5 or C3 - most often used as a baseline for manufacturer specific specifications such as BMW LongLife-04, etc. Although both bodies test oils with pretty much the same principles, such as cam wear, sludge, oxidation, varnish, etc., they also use vastly different engines as test mules.

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it, there's also the emissions side of things. With the API having a greater focus on extending the life of catalytic converters, the ACEA also has to take into account diesel particulate filters, which is more than just limiting sulfur and phosphorus. Since fuel quality is also a major concern, the API has to take into account ethanol, which the ACEA does not.

Although not exactly comparing apples to oranges, there are way too many factors to take into consideration here for the most part to come up with a single answer.


Petro-Canada Duron HP 15W-40 CK-4/SN
99 Explorer: H17W02
00 Pajero: XG9688
01 Grand Marquis: XG2
03 Expedition SSV: XG2
05 Envoy: XG9837
06 XJ8L: C2C41611
07 SRX: XG8765
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