dexos2 includes an LSPI test???

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Originally Posted By: dblshock

M1 0/40 FS is high in Ca so I use the Castrol Edge 0/40 on the 1.5t Honda.


Do you know offhand if that Edge is dexos2?
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: dblshock

M1 0/40 FS is high in Ca so I use the Castrol Edge 0/40 on the 1.5t Honda.


Do you know offhand if that Edge is dexos2?


 
Virtus_Probi, good find and thanks for posting.

This was a concern of mine, as in Australia they use the high HTHS Dexos2 oil in both diesel engines and some of the more highly stressed petrol/gas engines. Here Dexos2 is used as the performance oil in GM spark ignition cars. So with all the talk of the low HTHS Dexos1-Gen2 oil being developed to combat LSPI, that left me undecided as what was the best performance oil for a GM spark ignition car.

It looks like GM-Europe saw the issue too, and making a D2G2 that also combats LSPI is a sensible thing to do. I hear Europe uses the very similar (to Dexos2) ACEA C3 oil in both petrol/gas and light duty diesel cars, as a pretty much standard fill in most vehicles.

Most would know this, but for those new to European (ACEA) oil:
- A3/B4 is high HTHS (> 3.5 cP) and high SAPS (1.0 to 1.6 %) and high TBN ( > 10) and low Noack volatility - C3 is high HTHS (> 3.5 cP) and mid SAPS ( < 0.8 %) and regular TBN (> 6) and low Noack volatility [Note, equals is allowed in all situations above, and just to be clear you can NOT have an oil that is both C3 and A3/B4, it's either one or the other.]

So basically C3 is a mid-SAPS version of A3/B4 which makes it suitable for both petrol/gas engines and diesel engines with DPF. It's only mid-SAPS compared to the high-SAPS long life (EP) A3 oils, but compared to a regular ILSAC SN oil the C3 has fairly regular SAPS & TBN levels. Almost all of the C3 oils over her are also API SN.

To be honest, I never saw the point of Dexos2 with C3 already present, they looked almost identical to me. But now that Dexos2 has added a LSPI test, that makes it stand apart from C3 in one important aspect. Still, every Dexos2 oil I have ever seen in Australia is also a C3 rated oil, so for me the specs SN, C3 and Dexos2 often appear together on any Dexos2 oil around me.

BTW I'll just add that zinc is a LSPI quencher and significantly reduces LSPI events, so a high SAPS and high Zinc A3/B4 will technically not be a Dexos2 oil and not suitable for a DPF engine, however for spark ignition it should do the job fine at combating LSPI. So M1 and Edge 0W40 A3/B4 have about 1000 ppm Zinc, which should work fine, but not technically Dexos2 / C3 due to elevated SAPS levels. The Penrite Vantage 10W40 A3/B4 I'm using right now isn't a Dexos2 oil and isn't DPF friendly, but with TBN = 11.0 and Zinc = 1220 ppm, it should go the distance and quench any LSPI events in TGDI cars (not that I have one).
 
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I see this stuff everywhere in Australia (Link PDF)

Castrol Magnatec DX 5W-40 "Diesel"
It's full synthetic and spec'd API SN/CF, ACEA C3 and Dexos2.
It has diesel in the title, but Castrol say: "suitable for use in automotive gasoline and diesel engines"
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Do you know offhand if that Edge is dexos2?

They have one, but don't confuse it with the Castrol 0w-40 A3/B4 we see on the shelves in the 5 quart (5 litre here) jug. SR5 points out the differences in the specifications in his post.

I have not seen any dexos2 or C3 product in a suitable container size yet (unless you call an EcoBox suitable), and it's important to note that C3 and A3/B4 are mutually exclusive.
 
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
]

European vs US octane sales

type -- US -- European RON
regular 87 -- 91 (this is not available in Europe)
premium 91 -- 95 usually the lowest grade available in Europe
premium 93 -- 98


This is a false crossover chart. The Research and Motor tests are different, and they do not cross over to each other. Any given RON fuel might score relatively high or low in the MON test, and vice versa.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
... OK, yes, I see that low-speed preignition in TGDI engines is a lot more severe and harder to prevent. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in other engines to a much lesser extent (and, yes it does). ...
Conventional knock like you had in your Corollas is highly dependent on ignition timing, as well as compression ratio and other factors. I gather this nasty new-fangled LSPI phenomenon strikes before the spark---thus the "pre-" part of its name. Right?
 
As long as we don't throw predetonation into the mix to confound things further....
wink.gif
 
What I experience in Corollas only happens at low-speed, high-torque conditions, particularly right after upshifting gears during cruising. It's not a knocking or pinging sound. The best way of describing it is irregular sparking sounds. If I disconnect EGR, it gets worse.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
What I experience in Corollas only happens at low-speed, high-torque conditions, particularly right after upshifting gears during cruising. It's not a knocking or pinging sound. The best way of describing it is irregular sparking sounds. If I disconnect EGR, it gets worse.


But it's still not LSPI.

If your engines were DI, the crevice volume would have no octane bearing fuel species hanging around like carbs and manifold injection do.

Completely different cauldron of hallibut...albeit it might make some noise, under similar operational conditions (what are your boost levels when it happens ?)
 
It _is_ LSPI according to the Oronite explanation linked to earlier in the thread. That page and explanation says:

Quote:
Shedding Light on Low Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI)
...
LSPI is an abnormal combustion event in which the fuel-air mixture ignites before intended, causing excessive pressures inside the engine's cylinders. In mild cases this can cause engine noise, but when severe enough, LSPI can cause engine damage.


That phenomenon is not specific in any way to DI or TDI engines.

Perhaps you intend to describe something else? Something specific to DI or TDI engines? For my own part, I'd be happy to read of the difference(s) you intend to illuminate.
 
I've experienced it in both 4A-LC (carbureted) and 2ZR-FE (brand-new, 2009). It's not a periodic knock or ping. It's an irregular faint sparking sound. It only happens at low-speed, high-torque, low-throttle (immediately after switching to high gear), high combustion temperature (such as increasing in occurrence when I disconnect EGR in 4A-LC) conditions. To me it sounds like the very mild version of the same LSPI phenomenon in TGDI engines.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I've experienced it in both 4A-LC (carbureted) and 2ZR-FE (brand-new, 2009). It's not a periodic knock or ping. It's an irregular faint sparking sound. It only happens at low-speed, high-torque, low-throttle (immediately after switching to high gear), high combustion temperature (such as increasing in occurrence when I disconnect EGR in 4A-LC) conditions. To me it sounds like the very mild version of the same LSPI phenomenon in TGDI engines.



Just guessing here but my first thought reading that is that it could be mechanical. I always equate LSPI to lugging the engine as modern auto transmissions upshift quickly and many do not downshift unless forced. LSPI is a tricky thing to figure though. A lot of posters on the Subaru forums a few years back told of how their engines blew as they were getting off a freeway with the failure happening on the off ramp. Hot spots may have played the part there. Just throwing out some ideas.
 
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Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
It _is_ LSPI according to the Oronite explanation linked to earlier in the thread. That page and explanation says:

Quote:
Shedding Light on Low Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI)
...
LSPI is an abnormal combustion event in which the fuel-air mixture ignites before intended, causing excessive pressures inside the engine's cylinders. In mild cases this can cause engine noise, but when severe enough, LSPI can cause engine damage.


That phenomenon is not specific in any way to DI or TDI engines.

Perhaps you intend to describe something else? Something specific to DI or TDI engines? For my own part, I'd be happy to read of the difference(s) you intend to illuminate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_pre-ignition

Quote:
Low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI), also known as stochastic pre-ignition (SPI),[1] is a pre-ignition event that occurs in gasoline vehicle engines when there is a premature ignition of the main fuel charge.[2] LSPI is most common in certain turbocharged direct-injection vehicles operating in low-speed and high-load driving conditions.[3]

LSPI events are random and infrequent, and their effects on impacted vehicles can include very high-pressure spikes, loud knocking noises and sometimes catastrophic engine damage.


And from the SAE: https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/2013-01-2569/

Quote:
As one of spark ignition (SI) engine solutions to improve fuel economy while maintaining drivability, concept of combing turbocharging and direct injection (DI) fuel injection system with engine down-sizing has increased its application in the market. Abnormal combustion phenomena referred to as Low Speed Pre-Ignition (LSPI) has been recognized as potential restriction to improve low speed engine torque that contributes fuel economy improvement.


And the Chevron link you appear to be alluding to: https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

States:
Quote:
Turbocharged, direct-injected (DI) gasoline engines are rapidly growing in use because of their design to provide improved fuel efficiency when compared with other gasoline engine designs. In particular, there can be significant efficiency benefits achieved when a smaller, turbocharged DI engine is used to replace a larger, conventional engine of the same power. However, the higher power density of these engines makes them prone to a phenomenon called low speed pre-ignition (LSPI). LSPI is an abnormal combustion event in which the fuel-air mixture ignites before intended, causing excessive pressures inside the engine's cylinders. In mild cases this can cause engine noise, but when severe enough, LSPI can cause engine damage.


They SPECIFICALLY refer to Turbocharged, Direct-Injected gasoline engines when referencing the phenomena.

I wouldn't necessarily claim that it is exclusive to the realm of turbo DI, however its recognition as an issue that needed to be dealt with was a direct result of that technology and the efforts taken to deal with it are all relative to it as well.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I've experienced it in both 4A-LC (carbureted) and 2ZR-FE (brand-new, 2009). It's not a periodic knock or ping. It's an irregular faint sparking sound. It only happens at low-speed, high-torque, low-throttle (immediately after switching to high gear), high combustion temperature (such as increasing in occurrence when I disconnect EGR in 4A-LC) conditions. To me it sounds like the very mild version of the same LSPI phenomenon in TGDI engines.
Try high octane gasoline.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


I wouldn't necessarily claim that it is exclusive to the realm of turbo DI


Great, we agree. Thanks for posting additional references which show that LSPI is not specific to DI nor TDI.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I've experienced it in both 4A-LC (carbureted) and 2ZR-FE (brand-new, 2009). It's not a periodic knock or ping. It's an irregular faint sparking sound. It only happens at low-speed, high-torque, low-throttle (immediately after switching to high gear), high combustion temperature (such as increasing in occurrence when I disconnect EGR in 4A-LC) conditions. To me it sounds like the very mild version of the same LSPI phenomenon in TGDI engines.

Try high octane gasoline.

That would probably reduce it, but since it's so mild, I don't think it does any harm. I'm not worried about it.
 
Yes, I agree there is pre-ignition that occurs in "traditional" engines when they are borderline lugging...that's been there forever.

Then there's the LSPI, which is currently the subject of trying to be sorted by the OEMs and oil companies...with their new GDI high boost engines.

the fact that Gohkan's engines display the (very common) former does not make it the latter.

(I'd bet that if he tried a D1G2 lube in it he'd find it's octane/piston deposits)
 
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