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dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? #4711287
03/30/18 09:19 AM
03/30/18 09:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,284
New England
Virtus_Probi Offline OP
Virtus_Probi  Offline OP
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,284
New England
Largely a repost of something from another thread, but I thought it was significant enough to be worthy of its own thread. Putting it in the gasoline forum as LSPI is a gas engine issue.

One thing that I just stumbled across online that made my jaw drop is a claim that the dexos2 spec includes an LSPI mitigation test like dexos1 Gen 2, despite the fact that LSPI is not a factor in diesel engines.

'At the UNITI Mineral Oil Technology Congress held in Stuttgart, Germany in April, Thomas Hickl, an engineer for Opel, outlined the evolution of General Motors’ dexos engine oil specification. He noted that lubricants for GM’s new dexos2 specification, which covers diesel engines, will have to pass a low speed stochastic pre-ignition (LSPI) test.

This will be true even though diesel engines don’t experience unpredictable pre-ignition, the hallmark of LSPI, while gasoline engines do. Why, then, does dexos2 even include an LSPI test?

“There can be non-technical reasons to require even things that are not necessary for a diesel engine, which is LSPI protection,” Hickl said.

The non-technical reason has to do with GM opting for a single specification in Europe, which will apply to both gasoline and diesel engine oils. This is because of the high percentage of light-duty diesel engines in Europe, unlike in the U.S., and GM’s move to simplify the supply chain. Elsewhere in the world, GM requires dexos1 for gasoline engines and dexos2 for diesel engines.'

https://fuelsandlubes.com/fli-article/the-new-gm-dexos2-its-complicated/

I had NO idea. All this time I've been pointing posters on here to dexos1 Gen 2 as the only active standard that tests for LSPI and I have been full of it.
DIT drivers looking for higher HTHS oils can apparently use dexos2 as a guide.


2014 Forester XT, 90000 miles
Last Change;
M1 5W30 d1G2
Tokyo Roki 15208AA170 filter
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711298
03/30/18 09:28 AM
03/30/18 09:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,571
Kendall, FL
wemay Offline
wemay  Offline
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 9,571
Kendall, FL
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Largely a repost of something from another thread, but I thought it was significant enough to be worthy of its own thread. Putting it in the gasoline forum as LSPI is a gas engine issue.

One thing that I just stumbled across online that made my jaw drop is a claim that the dexos2 spec includes an LSPI mitigation test like dexos1 Gen 2, despite the fact that LSPI is not a factor in diesel engines.

'At the UNITI Mineral Oil Technology Congress held in Stuttgart, Germany in April, Thomas Hickl, an engineer for Opel, outlined the evolution of General Motors’ dexos engine oil specification. He noted that lubricants for GM’s new dexos2 specification, which covers diesel engines, will have to pass a low speed stochastic pre-ignition (LSPI) test.

This will be true even though diesel engines don’t experience unpredictable pre-ignition, the hallmark of LSPI, while gasoline engines do. Why, then, does dexos2 even include an LSPI test?

“There can be non-technical reasons to require even things that are not necessary for a diesel engine, which is LSPI protection,” Hickl said.

The non-technical reason has to do with GM opting for a single specification in Europe, which will apply to both gasoline and diesel engine oils. This is because of the high percentage of light-duty diesel engines in Europe, unlike in the U.S., and GM’s move to simplify the supply chain. Elsewhere in the world, GM requires dexos1 for gasoline engines and dexos2 for diesel engines.'

https://fuelsandlubes.com/fli-article/the-new-gm-dexos2-its-complicated/

I had NO idea. All this time I've been pointing posters on here to dexos1 Gen 2 as the only active standard that tests for LSPI and I have been full of it.
DIT drivers looking for higher HTHS oils can apparently use dexos2 as a guide.


Excellent post! Thanks


'18 Sportage LX AWD Pennzoil Platinum 5w20
'13 Santa Fe Sport 2.0T Castrol GTX Magnatec 5w30
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711414
03/30/18 10:50 AM
03/30/18 10:50 AM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,591
The land of USA-made Subies!
SubieRubyRoo Offline
SubieRubyRoo  Offline
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,591
The land of USA-made Subies!
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi

I had NO idea. All this time I've been full of it.


The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem smile

Who knows with GM's standards these days. There are the things they tell you and the things they are really doing in the background, and probably little overlap in the story between the two. Nice find!

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711559
03/30/18 01:39 PM
03/30/18 01:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,038
Idaho
CT8 Offline
CT8  Offline
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 12,038
Idaho
The new viscosity class ???


2015 Ford F150 2.7
2018 Ford F350 6.2
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711704
03/30/18 04:30 PM
03/30/18 04:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,025
USA
slacktide_bitog Online content
slacktide_bitog  Online Content
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,025
USA
Are European (gas/petrol engine cars) cars driven in a way that LSPI is an issue? I thought they were driven harder and faster, and they don't use low-octane fuel and low-visc oil there. That is, supposedly, 91 RON/87 US octane isn't even available in Europe, except in Russia. And no 0w20 or 0w16, either.

Also, next year, the (gasoline) US-market Corvette is switching to dexos2

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711797
03/30/18 07:02 PM
03/30/18 07:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Good thread

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Virtus_Probi] #4711814
03/30/18 07:37 PM
03/30/18 07:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Are European (gas/petrol engine cars) cars driven in a way that LSPI is an issue? I thought they were driven harder and faster, and they don't use low-octane fuel and low-visc oil there. That is, supposedly, 91 RON/87 US octane isn't even available in Europe, except in Russia. And no 0w20 or 0w16, either.

Also, next year, the (gasoline) US-market Corvette is switching to dexos2

Yes, European gas has much higher octane than the US gas. Typically 95 octane is the only gas they have and there is no low/high-octane choice -- as opposed to 87/89/91 in California. My experience has been that higher octane reduces LSPI but doesn't eliminate it.

Also, yes, low-speed preignition (LSPI) only happens at low RPM and high torque. It doesn't apply to high-speed driving, where RPM is high.

My 1985 Corolla has LSPI and so did my 2009 Corolla. It's inevitable if you want to improve fuel economy and throttle response. Sure, I could retard the timing to eliminate it but then the performance and fuel economy sucks. I don't know why it has been a big deal lately.

I don't think the current-generation oils are tested for LSPI. It's something we will see with GF-6 oils and future dexos oils that also carry the GF-6 specification. I don't think oil viscosity affects LSPI much and the oil industry still doesn't seem to know how to reduce LSPI by choice of additives.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 271,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Gokhan] #4711829
03/30/18 07:57 PM
03/30/18 07:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Yes, European gas has much higher octane than the US gas. Typically 95 octane is the only gas they have and there is no low/high-octane choice -- as opposed to 87/89/91 in California. My experience has been that higher octane reduces LSPI but doesn't eliminate it.


Again, Europe uses RON, not (R+M)/2, so their numbers are higher, but their actual ratings are comparable.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I don't think the current-generation oils are tested for LSPI. It's something we will see with GF-6 oils and future dexos oils that also carry the GF-6 specification. I don't think oil viscosity affects LSPI much and the oil industry still doesn't seem to know how to reduce LSPI by choice of additives.


re the title and content of the thread, Dexos does check for LSPI.

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Gokhan] #4711849
03/30/18 08:29 PM
03/30/18 08:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,482
Western S.C. since 1996
CR94 Offline
CR94  Offline
Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 1,482
Western S.C. since 1996
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
... My 1985 Corolla has LSPI and so did my 2009 Corolla. It's inevitable if you want to improve fuel economy and throttle response. Sure, I could retard the timing to eliminate it but then the performance and fuel economy sucks. I don't know why it has been a big deal lately. ...
Are you certain? That description seems more consistent with plain old-fashion knock (aka, pinging) than LSPI.

A GM exec was quoted in the '70s saying "knocking is the sound of fuel economy."


2011 Toyota Prius now at 93K
1981 Mazda GLC (323) retired at 606K
1972 Subaru DL retired at 190K
1954 Chevrolet retired at 121K
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: CR94] #4711865
03/30/18 08:54 PM
03/30/18 08:54 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
... My 1985 Corolla has LSPI and so did my 2009 Corolla. It's inevitable if you want to improve fuel economy and throttle response. Sure, I could retard the timing to eliminate it but then the performance and fuel economy sucks. I don't know why it has been a big deal lately. ...
Are you certain? That description seems more consistent with plain old-fashion knock (aka, pinging) than LSPI.

A GM exec was quoted in the '70s saying "knocking is the sound of fuel economy."


LOL, yes where we used to live there was a give way sign on a hill...lots and lots of small engined manual cars would give a decent knock or two as they pulled away from a stop...that's NOT LSPI

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Shannow] #4711873
03/30/18 09:07 PM
03/30/18 09:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CR94
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
... My 1985 Corolla has LSPI and so did my 2009 Corolla. It's inevitable if you want to improve fuel economy and throttle response. Sure, I could retard the timing to eliminate it but then the performance and fuel economy sucks. I don't know why it has been a big deal lately. ...
Are you certain? That description seems more consistent with plain old-fashion knock (aka, pinging) than LSPI.

A GM exec was quoted in the '70s saying "knocking is the sound of fuel economy."

LOL, yes where we used to live there was a give way sign on a hill...lots and lots of small engined manual cars would give a decent knock or two as they pulled away from a stop...that's NOT LSPI

It happens only at low RPM and high torque, such as after switching to the high gear. Same happened with my newer Corolla. Is there such a thing as old-fashion preignition and modern preignition? Preignition has been known for decades.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 271,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Gokhan] #4711876
03/30/18 09:10 PM
03/30/18 09:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It happens only at low RPM and high torque, such as after switching to the high gear. Same happened with my newer Corolla. Is there such a thing as old-fashion preignition and modern preignition? Preignition has been known for decades.


LSPI is a phenomenon that occurs in small, highly boosted DIRECT INJECTION gasoline engines.

Good old preignition (that dates back centuries now) is an entirely different mechanism.

Are your toyotas GDI perchance ?

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Shannow] #4711879
03/30/18 09:14 PM
03/30/18 09:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Again, Europe uses RON, not (R+M)/2, so their numbers are higher, but their actual ratings are comparable.

Yes, I know about the two methods and was wondering about that. So, 95 over there is more like 91 (high-octane) in US then. Also, in US, they have up to 93 octane or more in rural areas. They also seem to lower the octane below 87 in high altitudes. In Europe falsely exaggerated octane claims are also a problem.

Originally Posted By: Shannow
re the title and content of the thread, Dexos does check for LSPI.

Yes, but only the latest dexos (2016, 2017?). I was saying that the current oils are probably built to previous dexos specs and they won't make the transition until the GF-6 spec, when they reformulate their blends.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 271,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Gokhan] #4711890
03/30/18 09:20 PM
03/30/18 09:20 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,214
'Stralia
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Yes, but only the latest dexos (2016, 2017?). I was saying that the current oils are probably built to previous dexos specs and they won't make the transition until the GF-6 spec, when they reformulate their blends.


https://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/

According to GM, these are the 564 oils that are currently being sold with Dexos 1 Gen 2.

Re: dexos2 includes an LSPI test??? [Re: Shannow] #4711896
03/30/18 09:26 PM
03/30/18 09:26 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Gokhan Offline
Gokhan  Offline
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,353
Los Angeles, California
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It happens only at low RPM and high torque, such as after switching to the high gear. Same happened with my newer Corolla. Is there such a thing as old-fashion preignition and modern preignition? Preignition has been known for decades.

LSPI is a phenomenon that occurs in small, highly boosted DIRECT INJECTION gasoline engines.

Good old preignition (that dates back centuries now) is an entirely different mechanism.

Are your toyotas GDI perchance ?

OK, yes, I see that low-speed preignition in TGDI engines is a lot more severe and harder to prevent. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in other engines to a much lesser extent (and, yes it does). That answers my question about why LSPI is a big issue now.


1985 Toyota Corolla LE, 4A-LC engine, ~ 271,000 M
Toyota (TGMO) 0W-20 SN high-moly GTL (new formulation)
Mobil 1 EP M1-103 filter, 90430-12031 drain gasket
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