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Flat Tappets and ZDDP again #4708442
03/27/18 12:12 PM
03/27/18 12:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
I just found the original specifications for the valve spring pressures for my '72 440-4bbl engine. These spring pressures don't seem that high to me so I was wondering what everyone thought for oil. I have been using HDEO. At these pressures do I need the extra zinc ZDDP protection?

INTAKE & EXHAUST VALVE SPRING PRESSURE: 234 LB/IN, INTAKE LIFT .449, EXHASUT LIFT .464. FOR REFERENCE, THE 440-SIX PACK HAD 310 LB/IN AND THE SAME LIFT. THANKS!

Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708445
03/27/18 12:19 PM
03/27/18 12:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,406
USA
SOHCman Offline
SOHCman  Offline
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,406
USA
It might not matter if it's flat tappet. A roller cam wouldn't care so much though.


I urge people not to wait 100K to change out the fluid in their transfer case units. -Kestas
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708447
03/27/18 12:21 PM
03/27/18 12:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 868
MA USA
andrewp1998 Offline
andrewp1998  Offline
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 868
MA USA
run RP hps and fuget about it


2001 Honda civic HX vtecE- 5 spd,232k+
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708460
03/27/18 12:38 PM
03/27/18 12:38 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
BrocLuno Offline
BrocLuno  Offline
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 5,955
Kalifornia Kollective
As a rule of thumb, you need more than 800 PPM ZDDP for well broken in flat tappets that, as a class, do not exhibit much cam failure. That would include your 440 if it's all OEM. Chrysler cams and lifters are not known for excessive failures. These are not soft core GM cams ...

But, to me, that's living on the edge. Yours is a carb'd engine, so fuel dilution can be an issue unless the carb is kept well tuned ... So I like to run older engines on slightly more ZDDP. If the oil thins out some you are still well protected smile

Chevron Delo 400 15W-30 SD (severe duty) oil has about 1,200 PPM.

If you want to go up to 40 grade for summer, Mystic JT8 has about the same levels and is a very good oil. Used to be available at Tractor Supply. But I'm sure it's available elsewhere smile

http://pqiadata.org/Mystik15W40.html

Valvoline VR-1 (silver bottle) is readily available and it's about the same level. Just do some research at PQIA and see what you want to use that's available in your neighborhood smile

Last edited by BrocLuno; 03/27/18 12:40 PM.

Formerly in marine engineering. In an earlier life I owned my own petroleum tank truck, and hauled for the majors and independent's.
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708515
03/27/18 01:41 PM
03/27/18 01:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 117
Wichita, Kansas
vwalburn Offline
vwalburn  Offline
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 117
Wichita, Kansas
I've always believed the amount of miles put on the oil between changes helps determine the amount of ZDDP needed at the beginning. For those collector cars that only do 1000-2000 miles between changes; the current amount of ZDDP in any oil will protect well. More miles on the oil and more ZDDP can be needed. You can always start with the basic oil and add an ZDDP additive if you feel the need.


1996 Dodge Ram 1500
Valvoline MaxLife
2002 Honda Accord
Valvoline SynPower
2011 Chevrolet Equinox
Mobil1
1964 Pontiac GTO
Pennzoil 10W-40
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708582
03/27/18 03:16 PM
03/27/18 03:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,139
MA, Mittelfranken.de
Trav Offline
Trav  Offline
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 20,139
MA, Mittelfranken.de
With engines like that I always use an additive. Rislone makes a decent zinc additive, 1/2 bottle brings a 5qt pan of 800ppm oil up to approx 1300 ppm which should be fine. When I was looking into this I found out 1oz in 5qts raised the level 100ppm.

https://rislone.com/product/3x-concentrated-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment/


ASE L1, Master. Deutsch Meisterbrief.
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708733
03/27/18 05:56 PM
03/27/18 05:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
Linctex Offline
Linctex  Offline
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 6,480
Waco, TX
You'll need to add a little to your 15W-40 oil at each oil change, maybe 1/4 bottle each time


GM Performance 88862587 E.O.S. Additive

It's darn expensive - but cheaper than a new cam!




The Crane Cams stuff is also very high in ZDDP and Moly

Crane Cams 99003-1 Super Lube Engine Oil Break In Additive



"The evidence demands a verdict".
(Re:VOA)"it's nearly impossible to actually know the particular additives that are in there at what concentrations."
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4708817
03/27/18 07:16 PM
03/27/18 07:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,033
Michigan
A_Harman Offline
A_Harman  Offline
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,033
Michigan
Originally Posted By: Building3
I just found the original specifications for the valve spring pressures for my '72 440-4bbl engine. These spring pressures don't seem that high to me so I was wondering what everyone thought for oil. I have been using HDEO. At these pressures do I need the extra zinc ZDDP protection?

INTAKE & EXHAUST VALVE SPRING PRESSURE: 234 LB/IN, INTAKE LIFT .449, EXHASUT LIFT .464. FOR REFERENCE, THE 440-SIX PACK HAD 310 LB/IN AND THE SAME LIFT. THANKS!


Did you also find the spec for installed load? The spring rate and lift are not enough to calculate the actual peak load.


1985 Z51 Corvette track car
2002 Camaro Z28 LS1/6-speed
2001 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel
1972 GMC 1500 shortbed project truck
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4709019
03/27/18 09:54 PM
03/27/18 09:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 513
Los Gatos, CA
JeffKeryk Offline
JeffKeryk  Offline
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 513
Los Gatos, CA
I have used Rotella 15w40 in my original 68 L36 Corvette Roadster and 65 4-4-2 (96K miles, always garaged).
There are a number of oils formulated for flat tappet engines, such as Lucas Hot Rod, Brad Penn and Amsoil.
I like Rotella, but will use a specialty oil going forward.

I have a 5 quart jug of 10w30 something sitting the garage; I forget.
I would not use racing oil, as it does not have the additive package for street cars.

If I ever pull these engines apart again I will do a nice, mild roller and be done with it.
Good luck.

Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: A_Harman] #4709449
03/28/18 10:44 AM
03/28/18 10:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
Building3 Offline OP
Building3  Offline OP
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 101
Michigan
A_Harman: The other spec listed was "valve closed 105 lb./in."

Last edited by Building3; 03/28/18 10:45 AM.
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4709604
03/28/18 01:05 PM
03/28/18 01:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,696
Balearic Islands , Spain
FordCapriDriver Online content
FordCapriDriver  Online Content
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,696
Balearic Islands , Spain
Rotella oils are still high in Zddp, reasearch in the 70s found most typical OHV Flat tappet engines show the least cam/tappet wear with around 1200ppm ( Rotella still has 12-1300 ), and that more than 2000ppm is corrosive and causes pitting.
Most standard cams that are well worn in don't need a super high amount of Zddp, but ti stilll is not a bad idea to run an oil with high Zddp specialy when Rotella, Delo 400 are so available and cheap and at the same time you can have peace of mind that your cam is happy.


1975 Ford Capri II Ghia 3000 V6, - Shell Helix HX3 20W-50 w/ 20% Rimula R4X 15W-40 HDEO.

1988 Ford Escort Mk4 Xr3i Cabrio, - Shell Rimula R4X 15W-40, w/ 30% Helix 3 20W-50.

Finnish expat in Spain.
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4710487
03/29/18 11:25 AM
03/29/18 11:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586
Ontario Canada
caprice_2nv Offline
caprice_2nv  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586
Ontario Canada
I daily drive my 83 caprice all winter with the 305 that was know for camshaft failures back in the day. I don't know whether mine had the cam replaced or not but it has 227k on it now and runs fine other than a little piston slap on a cold start. At 3500 miles the oil looks like I just put it in. I run 0w40 synthetic with some GM EOS in it. It uses/leaks about a qt in 2k miles. I'm actually more concerned about my girlfriend's 2013 Sonata with the GDI engine that's currently under a recall for rod bearing failures. Her oil turns black immediately after an oil change.

Last edited by caprice_2nv; 03/29/18 11:25 AM.

84 Olds Cutlass - 350 Olds
83 Chevy Caprice - 305 Sbc
79 Honda CX500
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4710510
03/29/18 11:52 AM
03/29/18 11:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,259
Central Virginia
Silverado12 Offline
Silverado12  Offline
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,259
Central Virginia
I've heard good things about Valvoline VR-1. FWIW I use the VR-1 20W-50 in my motorcycle.


12 Chevy Silverado ext. cab LS, 2WD 4.3 auto
18 Mustang GT 5.0 auto
07 Harley Dyna Street Bob 96 c.i. 6 sp.
00 Mustang GT auto
Re: Flat Tappets and ZDDP again [Re: Building3] #4711446
03/30/18 11:29 AM
03/30/18 11:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586
Ontario Canada
caprice_2nv Offline
caprice_2nv  Offline
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 586
Ontario Canada
Valve seals leak on my caprice but only visible blue smoke in the summer time. So I run 0w40 or 0w30 winter time and once it warms up I'm switching to 10w40 or thicker. Maybe 20w50 this summer. I replaced the missing catalyst to help disguise blue smoke. I'm replacing the engine with a 2000 gm 5.3 next summer so I don't need to make this engine last much longer. Hopefully I'll have it pulled before it hits 250k miles. I might try 20w50. It always seemed like overkill before since it doesn't use much oil.


84 Olds Cutlass - 350 Olds
83 Chevy Caprice - 305 Sbc
79 Honda CX500

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