Has anyone used Kendall's HDEO with titanium? Is this a marketing gimmick or is there validity to their claims about reducing wear?
titanium additive in Kendall oils...
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Ti is a friction modifier this it's not only marketing.
Afton is an additive company that sells it.
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/20...ive-engine-oils
.... & its to lower friction and wear both.
Notably, Valvoline Advanced Synthetic oil has titanium now. (Not their version of oil that says "modern engine" on the front though, oddly.)
Castrol Edge full syn has a small amount.
Nobody uses as much as Kendall does. Kendall puts in around 3 times what others use.
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/20...ive-engine-oils
.... & its to lower friction and wear both.
Notably, Valvoline Advanced Synthetic oil has titanium now. (Not their version of oil that says "modern engine" on the front though, oddly.)
Castrol Edge full syn has a small amount.
Nobody uses as much as Kendall does. Kendall puts in around 3 times what others use.
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*Slippery Customer: A Greener Antiwear Additive for Engine Oils*
^^Copied and pasted from the article.
So is Ti an environmental friendly at wear additive? Is that the reason it's being used?
^^Copied and pasted from the article.
So is Ti an environmental friendly at wear additive? Is that the reason it's being used?
In Mexico there an oil brand, I think Roshfrans, that has been advertising titanium for decades now. Never really learned if it helps at all under normal loads or otherwise. Good thing to have more things that help lubricate, though. Never a bad a thing.
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
*Slippery Customer: A Greener Antiwear Additive for Engine Oils*
^^Copied and pasted from the article.
So is Ti an environmental friendly at wear additive? Is that the reason it's being used?
I think they say it's green because it won't poison catalytic converters like zddp will. No Phosphorous in the Titanium additive.
*Slippery Customer: A Greener Antiwear Additive for Engine Oils*
^^Copied and pasted from the article.
So is Ti an environmental friendly at wear additive? Is that the reason it's being used?
I think they say it's green because it won't poison catalytic converters like zddp will. No Phosphorous in the Titanium additive.
dnewton3
Staff member
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
I seriously doubt the titanium is in elemental form when used as an oil additive or when part of some tribologic protection layer. Elemental titanium also has a low ignition point relative to other metals. The way titanium gets it reputation for corrosion resistance is it's quite reactive in elemental form but forms a tenacious salt surface layer quickly & easily - often as titanium oxide, which with iron we'd call rust (ferric oxide).
Reactive metal fires with titanium parts used for corrosion resistance inside chemical process equipment where pyrophoric deposits form has been known to happen and is quite difficult to deal with once ignition occurs. I stopped such a project changing distillation tower internals to titanium random packing in a sour water stripper where pyrophoric iron sulfide deposits are practically guaranteed to form / be deposited once in my career thankfully. So elemental titanium in an internal combustion engine environment is not something I'd think of as desirable offhand.
Reactive metal fires with titanium parts used for corrosion resistance inside chemical process equipment where pyrophoric deposits form has been known to happen and is quite difficult to deal with once ignition occurs. I stopped such a project changing distillation tower internals to titanium random packing in a sour water stripper where pyrophoric iron sulfide deposits are practically guaranteed to form / be deposited once in my career thankfully. So elemental titanium in an internal combustion engine environment is not something I'd think of as desirable offhand.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
Thanks for this. I thought the Titanium additive was titanium dioxide. Strangely enough, titanium dioxide is the white stuff lifeguards smear on their noses at the beach for sunblock.
And Head & Shoulders shampoo contains zinc pyrithione, which is why it gives good wear performance when tested in a Falex machine.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
Thanks for this. I thought the Titanium additive was titanium dioxide. Strangely enough, titanium dioxide is the white stuff lifeguards smear on their noses at the beach for sunblock.
And Head & Shoulders shampoo contains zinc pyrithione, which is why it gives good wear performance when tested in a Falex machine.
Ti is extremely reactive with elements such as oxygen, nitrogen, etc. I'd think the titanium in the oil/engine would be in the form of TiOx, where x would be from about 1.90 to 2.0 depending on various factors. Could be other element(s) (e.g., B, Fe) involved also, but highly unlikely its in metallic form.
Last edited:
dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
1) I'm not a chemist
2) Really, I'm not a chemist
3) Elements are the building block of compounds; I think we agree here.
Ti is an element; can't be broken down to a sub-level (well, protrons, neutrons, etc, but it's most basic form is Ti).
What I was eluding to is that pure Ti is very hard and I doubt it's "only" Ti in oil in it's pure form. As I said, it's probably some derivative thereof; a compound that contains Ti in an altered state. What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I think we know what it isn't; it's not a pure form of Ti.
I want to know what it is.
Typical of advertising, they will boil it down to a half-accurate description that the dumb masses will hear and be able to regurgitate.
I'd like to know past that level.
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I accept that the claim is that it's an additive of benefit. I'm not a chemist or metallurgist.
What I cannot wrap my head around is how .... it's not harmful?
It's a metal; a really hard one. How can that not be detrimental to Fe, Al, Cu and Pb surfaces? Ti is FAR harder than those others. Why is it not abrasive? I can only presume that "titanium" is just the generic term being used, and it's actually some derivative thereof?
You're kidding, right? I thought everyone knew that molecules usually are composed of multiple elements.
And when you make compounds from elements the properties change drastically from single elements alone.
And, on this site, its also very, very obvious that when we say "there's zinc in oil" we mean as part of the ZDDP molecules, not pure elemental zinc.
Here, Ti is actually in a compound molecule with other elements.
"The measurements revealed that the antiwear enhancement comes from titanium chemically bound into the metal structure of the engine surface, forming a hard oxide, iron titanate." -- from the NIST article. Beginning with titanium dioxide, then forming iron titanate for the tribofilm.
1) I'm not a chemist
2) Really, I'm not a chemist
3) Elements are the building block of compounds; I think we agree here.
Ti is an element; can't be broken down to a sub-level (well, protrons, neutrons, etc, but it's most basic form is Ti).
What I was eluding to is that pure Ti is very hard and I doubt it's "only" Ti in oil in it's pure form. As I said, it's probably some derivative thereof; a compound that contains Ti in an altered state. What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I think we know what it isn't; it's not a pure form of Ti.
I want to know what it is.
Typical of advertising, they will boil it down to a half-accurate description that the dumb masses will hear and be able to regurgitate.
I'd like to know past that level.
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
The Titanium you see in oils is not a ZDDP anologue (according to most published patents, it's Titanium Neodeconate). Titanium trioxide lacks the basic character of Zinc Oxide so the reaction with thio acid doesn't work. However one might possibly speculate that whoever first thought of using Titanium in oil, might have initially conceptually imagined it as a TiTDP (Titanium Tri-thio Dialkyl Phosphate)...
What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
The Titanium you see in oils is not a ZDDP anologue (according to most published patents, it's Titanium Neodeconate). Titanium trioxide lacks the basic character of Zinc Oxide so the reaction with thio acid doesn't work. However one might possibly speculate that whoever first thought of using Titanium in oil, might have initially conceptually imagined it as a TiTDP (Titanium Tri-thio Dialkyl Phosphate)...
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
The Titanium you see in oils is not a ZDDP anologue (according to most published patents, it's Titanium Neodeconate). Titanium trioxide lacks the basic character of Zinc Oxide so the reaction with thio acid doesn't work. However one might possibly speculate that whoever first thought of using Titanium in oil, might have initially conceptually imagined it as a TiTDP (Titanium Tri-thio Dialkyl Phosphate)...
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8791055
Ed
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What I want to know is ... well ... what is it in the tech speak? I am aware it's not a "pure" Ti; I'm asking what compound it is, using Ti as the forming basis?
I'd like to hear from someone in the additive/formulation industry; Molakule?
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
The Titanium you see in oils is not a ZDDP anologue (according to most published patents, it's Titanium Neodeconate). Titanium trioxide lacks the basic character of Zinc Oxide so the reaction with thio acid doesn't work. However one might possibly speculate that whoever first thought of using Titanium in oil, might have initially conceptually imagined it as a TiTDP (Titanium Tri-thio Dialkyl Phosphate)...
https://patents.justia.com/patent/8791055
Ed
True, the patent I've seen by Afton have Titanium Neodecanoate ( https://patents.google.com/patent/US7776800B2/en )
C40H76O8Ti
... although there is a Lubrizol patent that simplifies it to Titanium Dioxide at one point: "For example, surface-modified TiO2 particles may impart friction and wear properties." ( https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006105022A1/en ) and the NIST article emphasized the Titanate (Ti compounded with Oxygen), as a subset of most forms of Ti compounds discussed.
C40H76O8Ti
... although there is a Lubrizol patent that simplifies it to Titanium Dioxide at one point: "For example, surface-modified TiO2 particles may impart friction and wear properties." ( https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2006105022A1/en ) and the NIST article emphasized the Titanate (Ti compounded with Oxygen), as a subset of most forms of Ti compounds discussed.
dnewton3
Staff member
I can only presume that this topic is not unlike many others, where the details of delineation are what matter most. I make the analogy of Cr (chromium). Some forms of chromium are beneficial to humans in direct consumption, whereas others are toxic; trivalent good but hexavalent bad.
So the marketing of "Titanium" in these lube products is (understandably) dumbed down for the masses, and the public vision is obscured by marketing manure.
So the marketing of "Titanium" in these lube products is (understandably) dumbed down for the masses, and the public vision is obscured by marketing manure.
dnewton3, Proprietary secrets here. The exact form of the Ti-based compound molecules, or how they synthesize it, are all trade secrets.
Sometimes they do brag about the form of the compound, as when Ravenol puts "Trinuclear moly and Organic Friction Modifiers" right on the front label of their 0w16 oil bottle. Rare to see that though.
Sometimes they do brag about the form of the compound, as when Ravenol puts "Trinuclear moly and Organic Friction Modifiers" right on the front label of their 0w16 oil bottle. Rare to see that though.
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