Which CVT fluid is best for Nissan

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: bbhero


..If Nissan was so stupid about this system then why put it in millions of vehicles?? And furthermore with instructions in the owners manual clearly stating what to procedure to follow with CVT fluid analysis. Not saying they are perfect. They are not and have jacked up a number of circumstances...




I hear what you are saying, but please let me explain. In my view, Nissan has very good mechanical and driveline engineers, and I have had 4 Nissan vehicles so far, with the latest being a 2015 PathFinder with a CVT and the VQ35 engine.

The procedure you speak of is not a CVT fluid analysis, rather it is solely a computation by the computer. I have yet to see any Nissan Service Writer instruct a Nissan mechanic to take a CVT fluid sample at various mileages for routine mechanical checks.

Besides, a Nissan Service Writer nor a Nissan mechanic is qualified to interpret a real fluid analysis.

The computer makes various assumptions based on inputs from driving style, ambient temperature, and various sensor inputs.

The only feedback from the CVT to the computer is RPM, pressure and temperature sensor values.

The computer does not have any sensors that can analyze the viscosity, elemental, or oxidation properties of the CVT fluid.

The CVT fluid life prediction is based primarily on two factors: Warranty coverage and lowering the cost of In-Warranty replacement for the Manfacturer and the Dealer.

The CVT fluid life prediction is not based on providing any reliability promises after the Warranty period.

The vehicle is yours to do what you wish and no one is telling you what to do.

I hope this helps with your future decisions regarding fluid changes.

Lastly, using actual fluid analysis, I have won a number of claims against manufactures and dealers for some clients, and one claim was mine.

 

[Whimsey]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule


The CVT fluid life prediction is based primarily on two factors: Warranty coverage and lowering the cost of In-Warranty replacement for the Manfacturer and the Dealer.

The CVT fluid life prediction is not based on providing any reliability promises after the Warranty period.


This does not only apply to Nissan but most likely for all major vehicle manufactures of consumer vehicles. They all are chasing the "it's cheap to maintain" mantra. Because chances are that it will last till the expiration of the warranty, however barely. But then it's your problem if you keep the vehicle after warranty or for subsequent owners, they don't care either way. Our 2017 Explorer with the 6F35 transmission says the factory fill is good for 150,000 miles and it's not even synthetic! I did an initial drain and fill at 12,200 miles and it was black, this including 6,000 highway miles in that 12,200 mi ATF change. We intend to keep the Explorer for a long time, like all our vehicles, so I'll keep doing drain and fills in the 25,000 mile range since it's easy and cheap.

Whimsey

 

[bbhero]

I did say that you would be the one with the knowledge base, experience, and aptitude to be able to argue those points with Nissan.

I don't know but I do think that the ECM on those vehicles can be very apt and accurate in some circumstances. In others... Not at all. It all depends upon a myriad number of variables.

As I mentioned before.... If there are issues with a CVT... It often shows up rather early. Aka 70k miles or less. In many instances it was less than 30k miles. At which point one could easily assume that it was not a fluid initiated problem. It was an other type of causation that led to those issues. Yes, there have been some well past those mileage numbers as well. Though not very many versus the lower mileage ones.

Has for the individual I mentioned about who wrote up a essay about that whole circumstance... It was rather impressive. Not just some random grease monkey. That individual knew the information forwards and backwards and every which way in between. In other places I read where other people collaborated his information. Having said that... There were cases where the deterioration number was not high and yet their vehicle was having serious CVT problems. So, that does not mean that monitoring system is fail proof. It isn't. No doubt. I also do understand that a computer system cannot do but so much in terms of specific testing or resulting information. That is rather clear to me as well. I don't believe that this ECM system is a simplistic mileage counter either. It is a decent amount more involved than that.

I have done what I have done because of what research I have done. And it was extensive. Another side note here is that about 95% of the miles I put on my car are super easy miles. Cruising at 64- 78 mph on open highway driving. Very little city and constant stop and go conditions. Thus driving down the road cruising does not place hardly any undue stress or heat on the motor or CVT. It is cooled easily but maintained moderately high speed travel. The one thing I believe is accurate here has well is this... People who say color and condition of fluid does not matter... Is not always applicable. In the case of transmission fluid one can easily see if the fluid is burnt badly or color greatly changed. Like when you mentioned how bad your fluid looked like... Diesel oil... Yeah that's not bueno. I would have changed that like yesterday as well. My fluid looks like motor oil with less than 1500 miles on it. Good bad or indifferent that obviously means a fair amount of something. Massively BIG difference between that and fluid that looks like diesel oil. My fluid looked very, very clear when checked at 40k miles when I first got my car. Now it looks golden brown like motor oil with hardly too many miles on it at all. Of course... Does that tell me viscosity.... TBN, TAN, and all other measurements of an oil?? Of course not. It doesn't. But am I super duper worried about it?? Nah. Not really. Why? Because I know the usage pattern of the car and what it has seen in terms of running the past 5 plus years. And... If that deterioration number is met... I will be notified of it. And I'm not all too concerned about it.

Now going to fluid advice.... I find it exceptionally odd that the owners manual unequivocally states only to run NS-2 fluid in my car. And that other CVT fluids are not to be put in it. In other words.... NS-3 is NOT backwards compatible with NS-2. Nether is NS-1 forward compatible with my car's CVT. So, I find it curious and rather odd that certain fluids claim their CVT fluid meets NS-1, NS-2 and NS-3.... How in this green earth could that be possible????? GIVEN... What the owner's manual clearly and unequivocally states in each generation of each of those CVTs. It should be either that fluid only ONE of those 3 criteria. It would seem to be rather odd that a fluid could possibly meet all 3 and yet that DIRECTLY contradicts the owners manual in all 3 latest generation of those vehicles. Something there is not making sense.


In my profession... I have to be judicious in a number of instances. I cannot just be a cowboy and say whooptteee doooo it really doesn't matter. Yes... There are some circumstances where I can be casual about things. Relating that to this... If a medication clearly has a contradiction with another medication then I cannot and should not administer it to a person. I can't be like ahh ohh well.... It'll be alright. It won't. In relationship to this deal... Why would I advise anyone to run "x" CVT that states it clearly meets all three NS-1,2,3... When I know FULL well what the owners manual states that the CVT fluid must match up to that generation of CVT... I am not going to do that either. Not a time to be a cowboy here with a CVT that can obviously be finicky, strange and is not a totally simplified and figured out transmission yet. It clearly isn't. Best to be careful in this situation the way I see it.





Having said all of that... MolaKule I really am glad you are on here. And I believe you and I see the world in a similar way. I always enjoy reading your thoughts ideas, and knowledge on here. You add a whole lot on here. I am grateful that you are on here. And I apologise if my post before this one seemed like I was being a horse's rear end. I honestly didn't mean it in that way. I hope that you have had a good day today. Thank you again for being so helpful and nice on here. I know myself and many many others appreciate you being on here.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: bbhero


...Now going to fluid advice.... I find it exceptionally odd that the owners manual unequivocally states only to run NS-2 fluid in my car. And that other CVT fluids are not to be put in it. In other words.... NS-3 is NOT backwards compatible with NS-2. Nether is NS-1 forward compatible with my car's CVT. So, I find it curious and rather odd that certain fluids claim their CVT fluid meets NS-1, NS-2 and NS-3.... How in this green earth could that be possible????? ...



Excellent question and I would suggest first reading this in terms of Step-Shift Transmissions;
Step Shift Fluids and Dynamic Friction Coefficients

The question of coverage has also been raised with the Dexron/Merc (Step-Shift) type fluids. If the Dex/Merc "Multi-Vehicle" ATF fluid has the proper friction modifier chemistries to support support a range of dynamic friction coefficients Mu(v), then they can provide a range of coverage and specifications.

Belt/Chain CVT's rely on another type of friction or coefficient of friction and that is called the, "Traction Coefficient."

This "Traction Coefficient" has to be within a certain range of values in order to properly transmit power and not let "slippage" occur, so special friction modifiers are part of the chemistry. The rest of the fluid contains base oils, Anti-Wear additives, and other components.

Now if the CVT fluid has the proper friction modifier chemistries to support support this range of "Traction Coefficients" then one fluid can cover Nissan NS-1 through NS-3 and other specifications.

As mentioned in other threads on ATF, whether it be for Step-Shift's or CVT's, ATF's are the most additized fluid in the automotive drivetrain because of these specialized friction modifiers.

 

[bbhero]

I learned about traction coefficient from you as a matter of fact.

I have mentioned that aspect of CVT fluid on here before. However... I still have strong reservations about a fluid supposedly meeting all three NS-1 through NS-3. Not when those CVTs have changed from generation to generation. Yes... The basic operating function is very, very similar... However... The latest generation of CVT behaves and acts VERY different than my generation of CVT. It was constantly looking for a higher gear ratio. So, even while attempting to cruise down the road at a steady pace the CVT would vary a bit. Whereas my car it stays steady as a rock in terms of rpm. Again, the basic principle of traction coefficient is the same. Which I understand and agree with. But there is a huge difference in terms in actual use and how the two CVTs operate. It could well easy to rationalize why a different CVT fluid would be needed to perform properly in the latest 3rd generation of CVT. Thus obviously necessitating the need for a similar yet different CVT fluid be in used in them.

That reason alone would make me very wary of saying ahh it's ok to run a fluid that supposedly meets NS-1, NS-2 and NS-3... I would not say it is impossible for it to be done. But I have large doubts whether or it is BEST practice. Again.. going back to being judicious with how my mind thinks about certain things.

 

[CharBaby]

I am assuming that CVT fluid, as it changed to the next generation, is backward compatible just like motor oils. Am I wrong?

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
...The basic operating function is very, very similar... However... The latest generation of CVT behaves and acts VERY different than my generation of CVT. It was constantly looking for a higher gear ratio. So, even while attempting to cruise down the road at a steady pace the CVT would vary a bit. Whereas my car it stays steady as a rock in terms of rpm. Again, the basic principle of traction coefficient is the same. Which I understand and agree with. But there is a huge difference in terms in actual use and how the two CVTs operate. It could well easy to rationalize why a different CVT fluid would be needed to perform properly in the latest 3rd generation of CVT. Thus obviously necessitating the need for a similar yet different CVT fluid be in used in them.


The computer program for controlling the CVT has changed from the first generation of CVT's to today's generation of CVT's, which is why you may get a different feel or different operation.

Different camshafts and different fuel injection methods from one engine generation to the next also requires new programming as well. The totality of the programming has to match engine with transmission, vehicle weight, etc., and affects overall performance.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Char Baby
I am assuming that CVT fluid, as it changed to the next generation, is backward compatible just like motor oils. Am I wrong?


Yes, just as Dexron VI is backward compatible to the earlier generations of Dexrons for Step-Shift transmissions.

And this is because of improved base oils, more stable friction modifiers, better oxidation inhibitors, and better Viscosity Index Improver's.

 

[bbhero]

I would suggest you take that premise to Nissan corporate or JATCO and or someone in their engineering department and verify that with them.

Not saying that you are wrong... Could well be able to do that.

However... And again... Good, bad or indifferent my owner's manual clearly and unquestionably states only to use NS-2.

When the OEM does not outwardly and openly states forward and backward compatibility it could would be not the greatest idea in the whole wide world of sports. The CVT is a rather finnicky, strange in a way and still a work in progress. A regular ol four speed transmission with far more time and units being made for ever would be much more likely to go off and do something different. I would have the same mindset about that like motor oil in a Nissan... Want to run a 0w40, 10w40 or 20w50?? Sure. Given the winter rating is ok for one's winter time conditions. However... A GM car that is a recent make and model requiring Dexos gen 2 approved oils would not be the one to run a Dexos gen 1 oil in it. There's a difference between how those motors operate. So.. in that case it is NOT forward compatible to run a Dexos gen 1 oil in a vehicle requiring Dexos gen 2 oil. Yes... Motor oil has the very similar function in both motors... Yes both motors are spark ignition gasoline motor... But the difference between the two is conditions in which watch one of them operate under. Where is this different with a gen 1 CVT and say a gen 2 CVT?? Yes, the very baseline function and operation is very, very similar... However, there are some differences present that necessitating the fluid be specific to that generation of CVT.. Thus eliminating the forward compatibility of the CVT fluid... And if NS-1 is not forward compatible with NS-2 then how can it be backwards compatible?? Granted in the Dexos oil circumstance it is clearly backwards compatible. Because... GM openly makes that abundantly clear. Which Nissan has not openly and straightforwardly stated... There's a LARGE difference there. And one that should not be unnoticed or simply ignored out of hand easily.



Having said that.. I am rooting bigtime for those trying different products to have ZERO issues and kick rear end with them.

My first recommenfation would use the OEM fluid that is for that generation of CVT. I believe it is the best practice. However, I would say running Amsoil or Redline CVT fluid is ok. We have people on here running Amsoil CVT fluid so far that have had no issues. I would have confidence in their products above say Super S CVT fluid.. Sorry but I just would in this case. Super S makes very good regular motor oil. I just don't know if I would trust them with CVT fluid...

 

[bbhero]

I will say this as well.. I read up on Hy- Perlube in here. The actual real good zinc replacement. Not that other junk. And based upon your assessment I was more than happy to run it in my lady's Camry. Between that and the Federated Auto Synthetic blend oil it greatly and I mean greatly reduced the noise from that 98 Camry motor. I do have a very, very high amount of confidence in your assessments. I also really respect your knowledge, experience, and tremendous help you bring into this forum.


I guess at the end of the day... I could well run the Amsoil CVT fluid in my car. Question I have is mixing it with old OEM fluid be a problem??? Because I would likely do 3 drain and refills over time.


I am sorry if I seemed like I was being trifling about this subject. Was not my intention. I just have a way of thinking of things based upon my way of thinking, what I have learned from my work, and having a judicious way of thinking of certain aspects of some circumstances.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: bbhero


...I guess at the end of the day... I could well run the Amsoil CVT fluid in my car. Question I have is mixing it with old OEM fluid be a problem??? Because I would likely do 3 drain and refills over time...



I don't see a problem.

I do know the Multi-vehicle additive chemistry works.

 

[cronk]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
I will say this as well.. I read up on Hy- Perlube in here. The actual real good zinc replacement. Not that other junk. And based upon your assessment I was more than happy to run it in my lady's Camry. Between that and the Federated Auto Synthetic blend oil it greatly and I mean greatly reduced the noise from that 98 Camry motor. I do have a very, very high amount of confidence in your assessments. I also really respect your knowledge, experience, and tremendous help you bring into this forum.


I guess at the end of the day... I could well run the Amsoil CVT fluid in my car. Question I have is mixing it with old OEM fluid be a problem??? Because I would likely do 3 drain and refills over time.


I am sorry if I seemed like I was being trifling about this subject. Was not my intention. I just have a way of thinking of things based upon my way of thinking, what I have learned from my work, and having a judicious way of thinking of certain aspects of some circumstances.


I emailed Amsoil tech dept before I drained and filled my Quest, asked if it was ok to mix.
They said not a problem, their fluid would mix fine with the OEM.
Obviously the more new fluid the better. You could do multiple drain and fills to get the most new fluid in there.

 

[JTK]

Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Get Castrol CVT fluid from Amazon. It's $35 for a case of 6

A few times a year, the parts stores have a sale on Castrol ATF for $5/qt. The deal does include their CVT fluid, but the sale isn't going on right now.

Valvoline is good too, but it does cost a bit more than Castrol. Some Walmarts are carrying Valvoline for about $7/qt, with the parts stores charging about $10/qt


I know I've been tempted to bite more than once on a 6 or 12qt case of Castrol Transmax CVT fluid deal online. I've seen it around $7/qt shipped a bunch of times. I have never seen the stuff locally. Suitable for Nissan NS-1, 2, 3 and Subaru Lineartronic.

My problem with Castrol transmax CVT fluid is it's dyed red per the MSDS. Why on EARTH would Castrol make it the same color as conventional ATF? I don't think there's an OEM CVT fluid out there that is red and I have to assume any shop that sees red fluid come out of an inop CVT is going to instantly blame the fluid.

 

[slacktide_bitog]

Originally Posted By: JTK
I know I've been tempted to bite more than once on a 6 or 12qt case of Castrol Transmax CVT fluid deal online. I've seen it around $7/qt shipped a bunch of times. I have never seen the stuff locally. Suitable for Nissan NS-1, 2, 3 and Subaru Lineartronic.

My problem with Castrol transmax CVT fluid is it's dyed red per the MSDS. Why on EARTH would Castrol make it the same color as conventional ATF? I don't think there's an OEM CVT fluid out there that is red and I have to assume any shop that sees red fluid come out of an inop CVT is going to instantly blame the fluid.


Probably because they think people might expect transmission fluid to be red, even though the factory fill CVT isn't. That is my best guess.

How far from you is the closest Advance Auto, Carquest, or Autozone? But even if they're too far and you can't get it locally, Amazon's price is very good (under $6/qt)

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: JKT
I don't think there's an OEM CVT fluid out there that is red and I have to assume any shop that sees red fluid come out of an inop CVT is going to instantly blame the fluid.


A finished CVT fluid is Amber colored and clear.

I dyed mine blue because my customer's customers are mostly Nissan owners.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...ehi#Post4701006


If you have the auto parts store receipt and bring a bottle to the dealer, there can't be a lot of complaining.