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80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? #4701297
03/20/18 10:24 PM
03/20/18 10:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 244
Nonya
Fallguy Offline OP
Fallguy  Offline OP
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 244
Nonya
How much can oils with better MRV numbers reduce startup wear vs oils in the same with higher MRV.

Say a one with 10,000 vs 15,000 MRV in the same grade.

Understand there would be better wear numbers or some advantage at low temps
but would there be any significant advantage or wear reductions on say startups at 40f+


"Yes I likely did a search already, I want more info".
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701313
03/20/18 10:44 PM
03/20/18 10:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,559
Oregon
1JZ_E46 Offline
1JZ_E46  Offline
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Posts: 1,559
Oregon
Unfortunately many companies dont list MRV, or if they do they just list the SAE max. Ive always looked at pour point and KV40 for startup performance within a given grade.


2007 X5 4.8i: M1 HM 10W-30
2016 Countryman S: EDGE 0W-30
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701326
03/20/18 11:01 PM
03/20/18 11:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,185
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
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Posts: 41,185
'Stralia
Not really...at 40F, the "W" rating has nothing to do with gallery filling.

And Gallery filling has nothing to do with startup wear at 40F and above.

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701348
03/20/18 11:54 PM
03/20/18 11:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,160
Europe
SonofJoe Offline
SonofJoe  Offline
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,160
Europe
Agree with Shannow. Wear advantage for lower MRV is zip. Also didn't this 'x% of wear occurs in the first few minutes of start-up' come from some dodgy Greek scientist whose work has been discredited?

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701351
03/21/18 12:07 AM
03/21/18 12:07 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 41,185
'Stralia
Shannow Offline
Shannow  Offline
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Posts: 41,185
'Stralia
Joe,
not sure of the greek guy...but the "80% occurs at startup" is incorrect for sure.
It's really

"As much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes of operation as the next number of hours" is more appropriate.

Cold, oil fully circulating, with components in their cold shapes, additives below activation temperatures, and the blowby gasses condensing leading to more "wear" as well as corrosion

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701430
03/21/18 05:00 AM
03/21/18 05:00 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 20,897
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 20,897
Oakville, Ontario
^^^ I agree, I have always felt that the entire warm up process is where most of the wear is taking place. That's why I try to be very gentle with the throttle in my cars until the oil reaches normal operating temperature.


2018 Corvette (M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold)
2006 Civic EX Coupe (PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra)
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive (GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra)

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Fallguy] #4701515
03/21/18 07:30 AM
03/21/18 07:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 646
missouri
ragtoplvr Online content
ragtoplvr  Online Content
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 646
missouri
I want the warmup process to be as short as possible. I drive normally never open the throttle more than one third, and leave the heater off if possible until the water reaches 190F. Makes a difference in fuel consumed also. I have electric seats, big help. On a typical 20 degree morning not running the heater I reach 190 f in 3 to 4 miles. Running the heater it takes 5 to 10 miles depending on outside temp. Another experiment in winter on a trip, I leave the motel and get on the interstate, with heater off reached normal temp in 5 miles at 70 for a 5 or 6 minute warmup. With heater on it was 15 miles before the water reached 190. This is motels beside the interstate, minimal running to reach the on ramp. I was lucky the windows were frost free.

Rod

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: 1JZ_E46] #4701562
03/21/18 08:06 AM
03/21/18 08:06 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Unfortunately many companies dont list MRV, or if they do they just list the SAE max. Ive always looked at pour point and KV40 for startup performance within a given grade.


Or like Mobil they tend to list it only for the 0W formulas most 15W50 clients are not very conversant in rotational tests at temperatures some of us chose not to live in

(Then the OEM hands me 0W20 anyway wink )

Last edited by 4WD; 03/21/18 08:07 AM.
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Shannow] #4701563
03/21/18 08:06 AM
03/21/18 08:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 30
Ontario, Canada
bumpasmerc Offline
bumpasmerc  Offline
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 30
Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Joe,
not sure of the greek guy...but the "80% occurs at startup" is incorrect for sure.
It's really

"As much wear occurs in the first 20 minutes of operation as the next number of hours" is more appropriate.

Cold, oil fully circulating, with components in their cold shapes, additives below activation temperatures, and the blowby gasses condensing leading to more "wear" as well as corrosion
[quote][/quote]



I would like to learn about two subjects you mention:

- could you give an example of an engine component in it's cold shape, that is particularly vulnerable to wear when the engine oil is cold.

- could you elaborate on activation temperatures for additives. I was not aware that additives needed heat to be activated.

Several owners manuals that I have had advise not allowing the engine to warm up at idle before driving off. They advise just start and go with light throttle. I am wondering if this advise is prompted by mandated fuel mileage targets and environmental concerns rather than what's best for the engine as far as wear is concerned.


95 Mercury Grand Marquis 4.6 SOHC, 134k, M1 5w30 , Fram Ultra.
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: bumpasmerc] #4701569
03/21/18 08:11 AM
03/21/18 08:11 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
4WD Offline
4WD  Offline
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 7,080
Texas
Bet pistons are near the TDC of the list wink

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: bumpasmerc] #4701571
03/21/18 08:15 AM
03/21/18 08:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,779
Taiwan
Ducked Offline
Ducked  Offline
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Posts: 4,779
Taiwan
Originally Posted By: bumpasmerc

Several owners manuals that I have had advise not allowing the engine to warm up at idle before driving off. They advise just start and go with light throttle. I am wondering if this advise is prompted by mandated fuel mileage targets and environmental concerns rather than what's best for the engine as far as wear is concerned.


I'd speculate that this advice might be partly motivated by them telling you what they think you want to hear. A happy customer is a repeat customer.

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: Ducked] #4701575
03/21/18 08:17 AM
03/21/18 08:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 10,014
Upper Midwest
kschachn Offline
kschachn  Offline
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Posts: 10,014
Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: bumpasmerc
Several owners manuals that I have had advise not allowing the engine to warm up at idle before driving off. They advise just start and go with light throttle. I am wondering if this advise is prompted by mandated fuel mileage targets and environmental concerns rather than what's best for the engine as far as wear is concerned.

I'd speculate that this advice might be partly motivated by them telling you what they think you want to hear. A happy customer is a repeat customer.

Or that's the quickest way to get your oil warmed up and is most beneficial for the engine in the long run, and will result in maximum longevity.


1994 BMW 530i, 231K
1996 Honda Accord, 263K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 402K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 272K
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: ragtoplvr] #4701634
03/21/18 09:14 AM
03/21/18 09:14 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 20,897
Oakville, Ontario
Patman Offline
Patman  Offline
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 20,897
Oakville, Ontario
Originally Posted By: ragtoplvr
I want the warmup process to be as short as possible. I drive normally never open the throttle more than one third, and leave the heater off if possible until the water reaches 190F. Makes a difference in fuel consumed also. I have electric seats, big help. On a typical 20 degree morning not running the heater I reach 190 f in 3 to 4 miles.


I took the Corvette to work this morning and it was only 26F. I noticed that in less than 5 miles the coolant got up to 90C (194F) and less than a minute later the oil temperature caught up to it. So even though it's a bigger engine with a bigger cooling system and more oil in the sump, it still warms up much quicker than my Civic does. I actually didn't turn the heater off though, I left the auto setting to 22C. I did help it along a little bit by using the paddle shifters and holding the rpm closer to 2000 (compared to if I left it in drive it would choose a higher gear and the rpms would be under 1500)


2018 Corvette (M1 ESP Formula 5w30 & NAPA Gold)
2006 Civic EX Coupe (PUP 5w20 & Fram Ultra)
2010 BMW 328i X-Drive (GC 0w40 & Fram Ultra)

Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: 4WD] #4701672
03/21/18 09:40 AM
03/21/18 09:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,060
Cincinnati, OH, USA
bullwinkle Offline
bullwinkle  Offline
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,060
Cincinnati, OH, USA
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Bet pistons are near the TDC of the list wink
And wrist pins would be right there too (unless piston expansion takes care of that too), along with valvetrain components (lifters/followers). That's where most of my cold racket comes from-nurse it until it quiets down, then off to the races!


06 Ram 3500 CTD 4X4(FG Venturi), 93 GMC C3500 6.2, 89 F-450 7.3, 98 XJ 4.0(XG8A), 05 xB(XG3600), 18 Transit 3.7, 03 Merc Grand Marquis 4.6 2V(XG2)
Re: 80% Wear Startup Shouldn't MRV Be Most Important? [Re: SonofJoe] #4701738
03/21/18 10:32 AM
03/21/18 10:32 AM
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 847
CA, USA
paulri Offline
paulri  Offline
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 847
CA, USA
Not too sure what ethnicity AEHaas was, but he reviewed one of those $28 SAE papers that showed that most wear does occur at startup: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=923479

This particular study had some 95% of the wear occur in the first 15-20 minutes, compared to one hour of wear after that initial warmup period. Roughly, 20 times the amount of wear in that initial startup, compared to an hour of driving at operating temperatures.


Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Agree with Shannow. Wear advantage for lower MRV is zip. Also didn't this 'x% of wear occurs in the first few minutes of start-up' come from some dodgy Greek scientist whose work has been discredited?


2005 Toyota Sienna LE; 156,000 miles
1998 Honda Civic DX; 202,000 miles
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